NOTE: This video is your first assignment for the class. If you haven't been to class yet (Wednesday and Friday classes), don't worry about it yet. I'll explain this in class then. However, for Monday classes, go ahead and watch this video and respond by Wednesday to the question below as a COMMENT. This will allow you to see how other people in class respond to the question, and replicate the kinds of discussions we would normally have in class (and will hopefully have in class once a week).
MONDAY CLASSES should respond to this video by Wednesday @
WEDNESDAY CLASSES should respond to this video by Friday @
FRIDAY CLASSES should respond to this video by Monday @
[Your class schedule should explain which day you come to
class, and which days are on-line days. If you have questions, please e-mail
me!]
RESPONSE QUESTION: Think of your favorite song or your
favorite movie: would the song still be as good if we lost the music? Are the
words good enough to read as poetry? OR, would your favorite movie be as
amazing if you just had the screenplay (the dialogue), and not the movie
itself? What wouldn't we be able to understand about the film? Would you have
fallen in love with the song and the movie without the music and the images?
(remember, respond as a COMMENT...or e-mail it to me if you have problems doing
so).
I have a couple of favorite songs of mine, like Taylor Swift's "You Belong with Me" and Michael Jackson's "Beat It." And I have seen those videos with the lyrics on-screen, but when I mute them, I just lose something when I hear (or see) it. Taylor is singing about lover anguish and Michael is singing about being in trouble one time. But when I don't hear them sing it and all I get are the lyrics, I feel cheated out of feelings. I want feeling in my soul. I listen to music to hear feelings and a catchy tune. So I definitely lose something when I lose the music. (not that the poetic words aren't great) But when I lose the singing, I lose the feeling of the song and therefore, I lose my interest in the song.
ReplyDeleteYes, that's exactly it: and did you know that Sappho's poetry (which we'll soon read) was mostly meant to be sung. So we've lost all the music that went with it! And yes, Beat It! doesn't really mean anything without that guitar riff and Michael's trademark voice. You wouldn't even know what type of music just from the lyrics (it could be country!). As you say, we lose the feeling in your soul--it's just catchy words, without the emotional music. Keep this in mind as we read the poems, since we're missing so much of what she intended us to hear. (also--be sure to include your name in the response since you posted as "Anonymous"--I want to give you credit!) :)
DeleteBe sure to include your name in these comments, even if you post as "Anonymous!" I want to give you credit :)
DeleteI think it could been an either or kind of thing because when you read something you start using your imagination but when you listen to the music and hear the different tone it can change your emotion compared to just reading it. I feel like if we hadn't grown up with movies and music all around us that we would be just fine but it can be a difficult experience changing something that you've been used to your whole life.
ReplyDeleteTrue, and good points--but can you use a specific song or movie to show us this? Pick something you know and love, and imagine what would happen if we lost one crucial element of it--say, the music, and only had the words left. Would it still be as meaningful to someone else, even though you can still hear the music when you read the words?
DeleteWell one of my favorite songs would probably be "Tell it all Town" by Koe Wetzel and one of my favorite movies would be The Greatest Showman and if it lost the music or just had the dialogue it would make a difference because you can't hear or see the different emotions that are meant for it by just reading it.
DeleteMy favorite movie is the Disney movie called, Moana. The movie is filled with songs, heartbreak, longing, and emotional pieces that just could not be described by words. Only reading this through a screenplay would demote all the things that make it my favorite movie. The most iconic scene of the movie is when Moana returns The Heart of Te Fiti. She finds that the beautiful, gentle earth goddess Te Fiti has been replaced with her monstrous, angry, and broken counterpart Te Ka. Out of compassion and love, Moana says that she knows who she (herself) is and that Te Ka knows who she (Te Ka) really is. This moves Te Ka to calm her anger and allows Moana to replace her heart, bringing back Te Fiti. Without the music, songs, and wonderful voice actors to play these special characters, I would not have been interested in the movie. As just a screenplay, it loses something so important; the emotion that makes the characters who they are.
ReplyDeleteYes, great response; no matter how great the movie is, in the end it's just like a hundred other movies with a similar plot and characters. What makes it unique is the songs and the way the actors inhabit their roles (and the animators who make these characters seem real). Without that, I agree, it would be hard to feel the magic of the movie or truly care about it.
DeleteI believe many songs would still be as meaningful as they are without the music behind it. Some artists pour their heart and soul into music that they write and perform, and the music does not actually do a ton for the song's meaning. Many old country artists, like George Strait and Alan Jackson, are not famous for their music. They are famous for the messages they put into their songs and the stories that they tell throughout many songs that they have written. If you take away the music, these types of songs can be read as poetry and still have a huge impact on a person's life.
ReplyDeleteYes, good points; in this case, the lyrics really ARE the song, and the music is secondary, and maybe even a little beside the point. It's nice, and it carries us along to the end, but the message is what we're supposed to get. So flip it around then: what if we lost the lyrics but only had the music itself? Would we remember any of these songs today?
DeleteWhen I listen to music, sometimes the lyrics have very little meaning to me and sometimes they mean everything to me. If I am sad or going through a hard time, there are certain songs that I can think of right now that I would go listen to and the words would resonate so well that they could stand on their own and make a beautiful poem that I could read and it would evoke the same feeling from me. On the other hand, there are a lot of songs where the lyrics and the tempo of the song are completely different, and you would really have to pay attention to one or the other. For example, if you read to the lyrics to the famous song "Hey Ya!" you would feel completely different than the happy tone it evokes in the melody. The song has an extremely happy beat that makes you want to get up and dance around, but many people, including myself, realize years later that this song is about a guy who is very unsatisfied with his relationship. He is basically writing in the song that two people are in a dead relationship, he's almost numb about being with this woman. If i didn't get the beat from that song, I would not think I would enjoy listening at a pool party with all my friends. The melody and the delivery is important to the musician, it helps exemplify the feelings they want to evoke. You can hear the hurt in their voices, or lack-there-of, in some cases. Without the melody, the lyrics could be portrayed in millions of ways.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great example, since the song "Hey Ya!" shows how words and music don't necessarily have to complement each other. And in this case, as you explain, focusing on one over the other gives you a totally different emotional experience. I agree that most people don't even think about the lyrics, and just lose themselves in the music. Yet as you also point out, some songs make the lyrics stand out, so you can connect with the singer's point of view. Even so, it's an interesting question to ask yourself: would you love a song as much without the music? Would the message really mean that much to you? It's hard to say.
DeleteExactly!
DeleteI don't think movies would be as good if they only had the dialogue. At the same time, some movies would have a much clearer story and meaning if you only had the dialogue. A movie like Wall-E without the actual pictures and film would sound like a cartoon, but with the actual film you can see it takes place in a dystopian future where we made Earth nearly unlivable. While with something like Finding Nemo, it is hard to capture the deeper meaning because it's a cartoon and the fact that they're fish. Taking away something and adding something can both be beneficial to a better understanding of the full picture and meaning. Movies without the cinematics wouldn't be my thing though.
ReplyDeleteYes, a movie like Nemo would seem insane without the cartoons, the voices, and the music fleshing it out, and Wall-E would just seem dull, or like the outline of a movie (since there's so little dialogue). This is important to consider, since a movie is a drama that relies on so many elements to sell the story. The same is true for poetry in the ancient world, since it was never meant to be read in a book (there were no books); it was always sung or recited to music. Reading it in silence would seem insane to the ancient world!
DeleteMonica Guajardo:
ReplyDeleteI personally have many favorite songs but one has been top tier since literally 2012. This song is "Hearing Damage" by Them Yorke. This song is everything. It fits with multiple scenarios from breakups to being rebellious teen. It can be interpreted many ways. This song is what it is due to the music and the speed of said music. Yes, these lyrics can be read as a poem but I feel they have more meaning when you can hear and feel the music along with them. This is the whole premise of music is to feel an emotion. The music is what helps you get into the emotion. Rage Against the Machine would not spark some anger if it was played softly on a piano or something. Without the music the meaning can be construed. Music is there for a reason. Songs without music is like pizza without cheese, just plain nasty.
Ha, great metaphor--pizza without cheese! (though some people like the reverse, pizza without sauce, which I think is crazy, too!). But you're right, RATM played on a piano is a totally different experience--music without the 'rage.' So imagine that all the poetry of the ancient world that survived did so without its music. We have no idea what it 'sounded' like. So we're eating a lot of cheese-less pizza!
DeleteI don't have a favorite movie or song, but I do love Titanic. If the screenplay was there and not the movie itself, I think it would still be good, but not as good as it would be if it were a movie. The dialogue would have emotion, I feel like. To me, it would have more emotion if the whole thing was there such as music and everything else. It wouldn't have us quite understand what the emotion is behind the dialogue. I don't know if I would have fallen in love with the movie without the music and images because the movie is so good and it's part of history because it's based on true events, so it makes me want to watch it over and over again. I thought the screenplay was great, as well as the music and actors who played in it.
ReplyDeleteGreat response, especially since you mentioned another element of movies--the music. The first movies were completely silent (though they had accompanying music on a piano), and we have a really hard time enjoying them today. They seem so dull and lifeless. Music is such an important part of a film, and especially in a film like Titantic, they give it life, drama, and of course, romance!
DeleteI am a huge fan of music it is something that I probably couldn't go a day by without listening. I just love the story behind songs. The way that artist use it as a way of connecting to the listeners on topics that most people couldn't come to talk about in person. I feel that lyrics to a song are meant to be meaningful by themselves but the music makes it more complete it makes it more fulfilling. Basically songs have to have the two components lyrics and music because they both play a huge part in songs come together and the meaning behind them. I personally would have fallen in love with the song without music because of just how meaning the lyrics are and what the story they are telling. But music just makes it one hundred percent better.
ReplyDeleteThis is Angela Chavez!
DeleteYes, great points--but tell us about a specific song that you feel would lose something without the music. How does the music help us 'see' the words? Or feel them? I agree with you that together they fulfill each other, and make the song come to life in a way it might not without the music. Think about this when we read Sappho, since none of her lyrics have music, and even most of the lyrics are missing!
DeleteI love lil baby his songs would not be good as music and in my opinion most rap / hip hop songs sound like poetry and the words are good enough to read but for it to be considered poetry all the elements have to be there like for instance the music has the be there.
ReplyDeleteGood response--but consider a specific song: if the music wasn't there, would it still read like poetry (or have the same meaning)? How do the beats help us 'hear' the meaning of the words?
Deletemy favourite song is "say you wont let go " By James Arthur it is like he is tell you his whole love story through the song and i think it would be a great poem and readers would understand it very well and its like a timeline thought the stages of his love life
ReplyDeleteGood points, but can you explain how he makes the words more than the words? How would this song change if someone else sang it? Or if it was just the music? What does he help you hear or experience? And what if there was no music at all? Just the words? would it be the same song?
DeleteA lot of the time sit just depends on the song and the lyrics to read just as poetry. I think that you just have to know how to read them to know and feel what the lyrics are about. The music does really help with the emotion and it helps tell the story I think because if you have a slow song like Jar of Hearts by Christina Perri, it would not give out the right emotion if was a faster paced song. When thinking about just reading books or just the dialogues from movies, you can picture and imagine what is going on but sometimes that screenplay is so amazing to watch to fully understand some of the characters in those stories. For example, in Avengers: End Game (sorry if I am spoiling this) when Dr. Strange is holding up one finger showing Iron Man that this is the 1 in a million chance that they win, seeing their emotion and faces really make that scene more than just the words or dialogue.
ReplyDeleteYes, these are great examples...in Jar of Hearts, the words themselves don't have a specific tempo: we could read them fast or slow, and in many different styles of music. But the way she sings it makes it seem so perfect and inevitable. And it helps us hear the kind of emotion she feels in the song. So that's the trick of reading poetry--to hear the music, to figure out what kind of music and tempo matches the words so we can hear the right emotion. And we also have to think about HOW they sing it, just as the actors in End Game know exactly how their characters should respond to this dramatic development.
DeleteOne of my favorite movies is The Sandlot. Personally I think every little detail down to the music that is played in certain scenes and the certain characters they picked for the film are perfect. The movie would not be the same if it were just words and spoken in a normal tone. The music they play, I feel, fits the movie so well. It is an older style of music specific to the time period the movie is set in and it almost makes the view feel as if he or she were in that time period. It makes the viewer feel specific emotions that are to be felt when watch specific scenes. The characters voices are so specific as well and depict the character so well, they males themselves kind of iconic, everyone knows those character's voices. I think there is a reason The Sandlot is such a well known and loved movie. All the little things that come together actually make a big difference and play a major role in making to movie so iconic. The movie would not be the same if it were just a screenplay.
ReplyDeleteGreat response here--we forget how much the actors make a movie, and how changing this or that actor would utterly ruin (or at least change) the film. Sometimes, what we hear in a movie is less the words than HOW the words are said...a certain actor can really sell a movie and a situation. That's why we typically don't read screenplays outside of films (unless you're in film school), and why we often don't know who wrote a given movie...because we invest more in the actors and the director than the story itself, which is often less important.
DeleteMy favorite movie is Friday after Next, written by Ice Cube, he also starts in the movie with comedians Mike Epps, John Witherspoon, and Katt Williams. This movie definitely would not have been funny without the comedy, storyline, and music. The main characters Craig , played by Ice Cube and his cousin Da Da, played by Mike Epps made it easy to relate to the issue they were having in the movie.
ReplyDeleteThe movie was set around Christmas time and as the characters and their family was preparing to celebrate were situations that took place. The way the movie was written and how the actors played their characters made the movie feel like something that would happen in your own neighborhood.
Yes, this is a good example of how the casting and the music create the essential atmosphere that makes us believe in the story. On paper, the story really isn't much...it's like a typical sitcom, almost. But Ice Cube makes it seem like he's not even acting, which makes it so much funnier to the audience. And the music helps us 'feel' the neighborhood and the time it was made in. Otherwise, it would just be another movie.
DeleteA lot of my favorite songs that I have are because of the lyrics. I rarely love a song just for the beat or melody. Sometimes songs have a perfect verse in them that make you remember the way something made you feel and you just have to play it back to hear those words again. Without the instruments in most songs that I love, I'd still love them with how deep and meaningful their words are.
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting, since it suggests that music needs the words, and that the words create their own music and power. We know this is true, though I wonder how much you still hear the music when you read the words, and how much that subtly influences what you read? After all, it's hard to separate words and music once you know it well, and the two tend to become one thing. However, if what you say is true, it explains why we can still read Sappho without the music and find something meaningful in it for us, thousands of years later.
DeleteOne of my favorite songs is "Goodbye yellow brick road" by Elton John. I really like how the way he sings it conveys his message. His tone of voice and use of sound helps him create a story. His use of vocalizations in conjunction with the lyrics evoke stronger feelings than just the words on paper. In my opinion, "Goodbye yellow brick road" would make a great poem, but nothing could beat the feeling of listening to the song for the first time.
ReplyDeleteAlex Smith
DeleteGood response--and I agree, the way a song is sung is as important (if not more) than the words themselves. How many songs have moments where singers don't even sing words, but just do things like "uh-huuuh," or "ohhh yeahhh"? Those would be meaningless and silly on paper, but can really make a song and become an instrument in themselves. The singer, as you say, creates the story, and helps us hear the mood and the emotion of the piece. Otherwise, we might all hear totally different songs simply by reading the words!
DeleteWhen picking a a "favorite" song I try to think of where I was in life or what happened at that time when I started to listen to the song. Songs that have meanings to me come from the most selfish of places; such as, about how I was feeling, or who I was thinking about, and the range goes on. One song that created such emotion for me was Boys of Summer by Don Henley. A big song in the 80's, however not so big now. The song talks of two lovers that grew apart and how the man, no matter what, he will get her back because he still loves her. The lyrics, in my opinion, also includes the idea of growth and escaping adolescence. The music is great, it has the 80's beat and classic rock sound but the lyrics I can relate with. Take away the music, you have a good poem and story. With the music there is emotion that builds.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is a great example; the song is a poem, a story in itself, and the music in a way works against it and with it. We don't need the music to help us read the song, but it makes us experience it in a different way. I particularly like when a 'happy' sounding song has dark lyrics, or something that sounds romantic isn't romantic at all--like The Police's Every Breath You Take, which is about a stalker!
DeleteYHelm: The song "Lemonade" by Chris Rice is a beautiful love song. The song itself appeals to everyone because everyone wants to be in love, right? The melody is soft and playfully compliments the lyrics. In my opinion, the lyrics are able to stand alone because of Rice's use of rhyme and metaphor. Here is the first stanza:
ReplyDeleteSo go ahead and ask her
For happy ever after
'Cause nobody knows what's coming
So why not take a chance on loving?
Come on, pour the glass and tempt me
Either half-full or half-empty
'Cause if it all comes down to flavor
The glass is tipping in my favor
Yes, this is a great example, because the lyrics are clever and fun to read out loud. You almost don't need to sing them, or need music to accompany them. If we found this song a thousand years from now, it would still get a chuckle...and we could definitely relate to the emotions/experience here. I often think the better the lyrics are, the more the music can do with it and the more it can be unique and unexpected. Cliched lyrics almost doom music to follow a very narrow path. That's why quite often, the best songs also have memorable lyrics--poetic lyrics.
DeleteI couldn't tell you what my favorite movie is; however, any movie would not be as good without the background. The background tells you more than where this movie takes place, it also tells you what era that certain cast is trying to portray. Sure, you have dialogue, but without the surrounding area you might think that the cast is making fun of a certain group, when in fact they are trying to give you facts. However, if the only movies we had ever seen only had dialogue, we would be able to tell just by the tone of a voice. But we haven't so we can't.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you, though there are some more experimental movies which only have minimal music or no music at all. A lot of foreign films experiment with this, including some older Japanese movies that just use sound effects for 'music.' Try to mute one of your favorite movies sometime and turn on the subtitles. Since you can still read the film, and see the actors, does it make that much of a difference to lose the music--the voices, the soundtrack, and the other effects? I think in every case it would result in a profoundly different film.
DeleteWhen I think of a favorite film, my mind always wanders to "Annie" (the old school 1982 version of course!). This film is about a 10 year old orphan's journey to adoption by the richest man in town Mr. Oliver Warbucks. As a challenge, I decided to watch 10 minutes of this film without sound. I can personally say that just watching along and reading subtitles did not feel the same as watching with audio. When we read song lyrics or lines from a movie, we are not reading them with the intended emotion and tone that it should be read/sung which causes us to miss the message behind the film/song. Also, when we don't hear the melody, it is up to the audience to interpret the context behind the song/movie which can be the exact opposite of what the author/singer is actually referring to.
ReplyDeleteOh, that's a great example--a musical! The lyrics are always important in musicals, and yet, the music itself helps carry the scene and paint the emotion. A musical becomes kind of hilarious without the music; everyone looks like mimes dancing across the stage, swinging their arms and saying nothing. We might laugh in all the wrong places!
DeleteI am a big country music fan and I think most of the songs without music would be just as good since there is a meaning behind the words in most of their songs. My favorite song is "In Color" by Jamey Johnson and I could see it being a good poem since it is talking about someone's life or story so there is a ton of meaning behind it. I fell in love with the song because you could hear the emotion in the singers voice and how much this song relates to him and the older generations that lived through these events he mentions in the song. It is like a piece of history is being taught to you as you listen to the song.
ReplyDeleteGreat response here, but notice that you responded to the emotion in the singer's voice--that's music, too! The singer interprets his song and allows you to live inside the words, and here what they mean to him. Would you have been able to hear this without the singing? Would the words alone teach you how to 'hear' it? When reading poetry, try to hear the voice singing it, just as you do with this song. That's the best way to make poetry come to life--to imagine who is reading/singing it and how they want it performed.
DeleteMatthew Throneberry
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite songs is called, "Mirror" by lil Wayne. The song has so much meaning that I believe it could be read as poetry. A good poem evokes an emotional response. The song for me describes his inner pain and inner struggles. He talks in third person view when in reality he was talking about himself. There have been times throughout my life where I would reflect on myself as if I'm looking at a mirror. For me, a song is only as good as the story it tells. The reason I chose this song is that this song is different from his other ones. This song he opens up about himself and his inner battles.
That's fascinating when a singer changes perspective (third person) to see himself in a different light. This also makes the song more relatable and universal, and the music helps us internalize it as well. A good song or poem IS a mirror, and you see yourself as you read about other people's pain and suffering. Because we all experience the same things, just as different times and in different contexts. But pain is not unique--it's the same for all of us.
DeleteI do believe that some songs can be read as poetry and the meaning would still be there by the way the author writes and the message. On the other hand, I also believe that some songs are simply not the same without the music in the background. Post Malone is a great artist and a lot of his music have very strong lyrics that anyone could read and understand what he is trying to say. There are some newer artists and to me, their songs are not as good without the music because their lyrics do not send a clear message. I guess it depends on what you listen to.
ReplyDeleteYes, that's a great point--music with a strong message usually has lyrics that communicate with the music, each one underlining the overall message. Often, the words are just kind of throw-away, with a generic, even cliched message that goes along with the music (almost as an excuse to have someone singing). But a great song has the music serve the lyrics and underline their meaning, making them 'sound' a specific way, which makes them easier to relate to. But you're right, not all music does this, or at least not ever artist.
DeleteOluwatobi
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite song is titled " Pretty Girl" by " Adekunle Gold". He is a an African artist, a Nigerian to be precise. The song wouldn't be as good if we lost music and honestly the song isn't good enough to read as a poetry. The song is an Afro-pop and the lyrics are meant to be danced to. We can't dance to a poetry. He has good songs with good lyrics but they are not my favorite. I wouldn't have fallen in love with this song without music and images, because the images kind of tells me what i should be expecting from him.
Right, poetry is hard to dance to, even though it does have its own rhythm and music. But the song tell us how to experience the words, and the words can become a kind of music themselves when sung--so that the meaning almost doesn't matter. That's why so many students have trouble with poetry: they expect music to go along with it. But you can 'dance' to any poem if you learn to add your own music!
DeleteTo myself personally it would depend if I had never heard the song before or not. If my favorite song lost its lyrics I would simple remember and appreciate the song for its potential. If I had never heard the lyrics and simply listened to the song with words for the first time to me it would be completely different. When I listen/watch pieces of art I will fall in love with them based on how much I relate to them. If I listen to a song where I feel like the artist is going through the same thoughts and feelings that I am going through I will tend to lean toward liking that song more. How could I do that without any words? I don't think I could.
ReplyDelete
DeleteI understand this problem--words help guide us to the music, and yet, the music also helps guide us to the words. It's easier than you might think. I enjoy a lot of purely instrumental music, and the moods are very easy to follow. I think that's why people have such problem with poetry: it's like lyrics without the music. They're expecting the music to guide them, and the blank page is silent. And yet, if you learn to supply your own music, the words sing all by themselves! So every lover of music is also a secret lover of poetry, too.
One of my favorite songs is 'here' by Alessia Cara. I feel that almost every song would still be good even if we lost the music. A lot of artist today write music to tell a message or how they are feeling in a moment. I am not the type of person who likes the song for the beat, I usually like to listen to music with message. I would not say I could fall in love with the song. We all grew up listening to songs with the music and lyics.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite song is "Naked" by Ella Mai. Yes, the song would still be good without the music. yes, the words are good as a poem because the words are what makes the song good. I don't really know if I would have even heard of the song if it didn't have music but when I first heard it, it wasn't about the music it was about the words that I could relate too.
ReplyDeleteDenise Thomas
DeleteFor some reason I never saw this tab...
DeleteBut anyways, one of my favorite songs is Praying by Kesha. I relate with this song because I myself am a sexual assault survivor just like Kesha. So the message behind the song is quite powerful to me. The song is about fighting and overcoming adversity and finding peace in those who hurt you the most. I use to not be able to even talk about what happened to me but now I feel strong enough to talk to others about what happened to me and help them get through the same situation. This song is pretty much is saying goodbye to your painful past and become stronger out of the terrible situation. This song will forever be powerful to me.