Be sure to watch the video below (approx. 17 min) and respond to the question at the end with a COMMENT below. Also--be sure to read Books 6,9, & 12 and answer the questions in the post below. The questions are always due on your face-to-face class day (even if you don't come), but the video can be answered anytime next week.
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Be sure to get a copy of our next book, Lao Tzu's Tao te Ching, so you can answer the questions for next week (I'll post them soon)...
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An actual fragment of Sappho' s poetry Be sure to read the few fragments in the last chapter, "The Wisdom of Sappho" befo... -
Here's a short video that talks about how much translation matters, especially in an old and mysterious work like the Tao te Ching . W...
William Carter
ReplyDeleteI believe that humans do have free will and people can make their own choices. They can choose to be courageous or brave or evil or anything. Also, I don't think mortality is chosen by gods at all. If that were true, tons of people would kill themselves just to be brought back. Do you remember in Book 9 where Achilles is asked to return to battle? Ajax, Phoenix and Odysseus give him all the gifts someone could want, racehorses, gold, tripods, sweet stuff. But in the end, he announces that he intends to return to his homeland of Phthia, where he can live a long, prosaic life instead of the short, glorious one that he is fated to live if he stays. He was the only one who controls that decision. It takes guts to make any decision and you are responsible for what happens, not the gods.
YHelm: Within the world of The Iliad, it appears that mankind has free will to a point, but sometimes the gods intervene and change the course of events. For example, Agememnon takes the daughter of a priest of Apollo, and has plans to keep her until she is an "old woman in Argon"(2). The girl's father begs Apollo to avenge him, and the god does. Although Agememnon had made a free will choice about the girl, he is now forced to give her back to her father or be destroyed by Apollo. Agememnon also offends Achilles, so much that Achilles is about to kill him when the goddess Athena intervenes and pulls Achilles hair to get him to back off from Agememnon(7). Instead of killing Agememnon, Achilles chooses to listen to the goddess. Mankind still has a choice to follow a moral code. Even the soldiers of Agememnon said, "Respect the priest and take the ransom"(2). They recognized that what Agememnon did was wrong and therefore observe some type of morality.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Carter
DeleteThat's an amazing response!
In my opinion, I think the reason why they commit great deeds is because maybe it's the only way to be immortal or maybe they didn't think about the other choices they could have chose in order to be immortal. I think mankind has the free will to distinguish themselves. They should be able to choose between good and evil. To me, I think the Greeks believe that morality is a decision made behind closed doors because they think they are more in control. For example, Helen is good because she likes the Trojans and Greeks, but she is more on the other side. I think she chose to be good, even though she was portrayed as the one who started the war in the first place. In the end, her decision seemed to have backfired in a way. Her decision of being good didn't seem like she really got to choose it at all.
ReplyDeleteI hope this answered the questions from the video.
- Brittney Taylor
i think that humans have free will but i don't think that anyone can have mortality i think humans can do nice or evil or anything if they want its not up to the gods i think he gods aren't going to let just some random person be a god you have to yearn it in the real world
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that in The Iliad, humans do have free choice. We see examples of this in Achilles when he continues to sit out and not come back and fight, even after he is offered amazing rewards. He wants one thing, and he chooses not to come back because he does not get that one thing. We also see this in Glaucus and Diomedes, when they choose not to fight and instead, become friends. They could've chosen to fight instead, even if their grandfathers were friends. But instead they chose not to. We this free will and free choice regularly throughout this book.
ReplyDeleteMicah mitchell
ReplyDeleteI feel that these people do these deeds because they want to be like a god and will do any and everything to achieve that goal so I don’t think it’s that they have little choice in this but that they think this is what they have to do to get to where they want to be, and I do think humans have free will do do or be whoever or whatever they want to be but just like now when things go bad or don’t end up how they want it to they wand and look for someone to blame in this case it is the good and it’s the same thing if they happen to do something extraordinary that a lot of the times they want someone to praise for it and usually they gods love to take credit for the good that happens in the humans life’s
Yes, I would agree that mankind has free will and makes choices based on personal beliefs and feelings. In Book 3 Helen was very upset with Aphrodite because she pretended to be Helen's friend in order to get her to Paris' bedroom. Helen found this out and even though she was disgusted by Paris for being a coward she still slept with him. Helen had a choice, maybe she thought this would help her get back home where she could be with Menelaus and her people.
ReplyDeleteI think that humans ultimately make their own choices but they also want to please the Gods, so the Gods indirectly control humans. Humans simply do deeds or favors for the Gods because they respect the Gods, so if a God tells a human to do something they don't really have to to do it but humans do it anyways because they want to do what makes the Gods happy. You can see this when Phoenix is trying to convince Achilles, he says "even the Gods can bend.(511) Superior as they are In honor, power, and every excellence,(512) They can be turned aside from wrath(513) When humans who have transgressed(514) supplicate them with incense and prayers(515)." I think what Phoenix is trying to say is that the Gods only look after themselves and don't care about human as much as they thought they did. He is saying that humans can and should do the right thing, the thing that they think is best for them because most likely the Gods just want humans to do things that favor what they want.
ReplyDeleteI think humans do have a choice to be good or evil. To me it seems that these Gods are there to guide only not to choose who that person is suppose to be. Achilles for example is having trouble choosing whether or not to go into battle to become heroic and he has people and Gods there to guide him. It it his choice to choose whatever the Gods what him to do.
ReplyDeleteI, too, believe that humans have free choice to be good or bad, but in the Greek and Trojan world, the whole reason to live is to bring honor to their name and be remembered. So, although it seems like they can sometimes be swayed to do good by the Gods, the choice is completely their decision. In many cases in this book, you hear lines that say one day we will be remembered or one day our story will be told even when we die, and that is how a lot of people decided to make their decisions. The God's can ultimately help them with any decision they are trying to make, or not help them with a specific decision, but that's how life works. Not everything will go your way one hundred percent of the time. When Glaucus and Diomedes chose to be friends instead of fighting one another, that is an example of those moral beliefs to be respectful come in. It's a choice they have to make every day.
ReplyDeleteAfter watching the video I do believe that humans have free will and are able to make their own choices. They have the ability to do anything... love someone, be courageous, be brave, kill, etc and the Gods don't have any control over it. So the humans have control of their choices. I do not believe that the humans have control over their morality though because the Gods aren't going to let some random person become a God, the person needs to earn it and they need to be worthy of being a God.
ReplyDeleteMonica Guajardo:
ReplyDeleteI feel that humans have free will and the ability to dictate their own choices in their life. Achilles is a big example (though he is a Demi-god) he struggles with doing the right thing. He struggles with fighting this war. They do have free will to a certain point, they do what the Gods want them to do until they hit their max. The Gods (or God) could have something on a silver platter for them but at the end of the day it is the humans choice to follow and achieve whatever they have for them. The Gods are blamed for any good or evil in the world no matter what, when things could be sue to a choice that a human made. We are responsible for ourselves.
I believe mankind has free will. Take Abdromache for example. She is very selfish in book 6 in the fact that she doesn't want her husband to fight in the war. She doesn't want to lose another person close to her. Why would this matter to the gods? They wouldn't care if she would want that or not. Her being a little selfish is an act of free will in my opinion. Alex Smith
ReplyDeleteI believe that humans in The Iliad are destined to their fate, but it is themselves who decide their fate. We can see this through Helen as she frequently cries out about her sitaution and longing to be back to her normal life with her actual husband. She blames Aphrodite and when Helen and Aphrodite see each other again we can see that Helen has resentment for what Aphrodite has done to her life, Helen acknowledges that her will really has no meaning, if Aphrodite wished for her to be swept away by another man then that is how it would be. But I also believe there is some limit to this, in a way I feel that, even though humans are pawns to the god's games, we know that the entirity of power does not lay within the gods. I see these gods as human feelings or emotions; they may sway us one way or another but in the end it is in fact us who decide which paths we take in life.
ReplyDeleteMatthew Throneberry
ReplyDeleteI see as mankind determines their fate to a certain extent. I believe that the choices they make distinguish themselves from good or bad. In book 9 Achilles explains his options of either stay and fight to honor his heroism or to go home for a long life. He chooses how he wants his legacy to be and how he is remembered, not letting the gods decide for him.
I think humans have free will here. They can choose what side they’re on. If they’re good or evil. It’s really who the gods favor in this book who will be influenced more by them. I’m sure the gods don’t put as much attention to a random shop owner or farmer as much as they do Achilles, Paris or any other main character. It’s because these people are interesting. They have potential and the gods want to help them put on a great show. They do have the chose to do whatever they please but most of them have several different gods in their ears telling them to do this or that. It’s influenced greatly.
ReplyDeleteI think that humans are given the choice to have free will. Although I do believe that others have certain advantages set by the Gods to help them along this journey. A big example is Achilles. He has been helped significantly with his shield that protects him from all harm. Yet he still has his own free will to decided what to do with that special ability. He could stay low and make sure no one ever gets close to his ankle or he could use this advantage to fight.
ReplyDeleteIn the era that Homer is writing, I believe that all of these characters do not have free will, they believe that the gods are always watching. I believe their actions are due to knowing they are being watched and wanting to please the gods. I think the characters try to make their own decisions, but almost immediately after they are reprimanded by the gods.
ReplyDeleteJayme Poulin
ReplyDeleteMankind certainly has freewill to choose whoever they want to be or do. Achilles has done numerous things like that. When he is given tons of equipment and goods by the other people, (I forgot their names) he chooses to go back to his home instead of fighting. We all have choices and so do ‘immortals.’ Also, im sure the Greeks believed that morality is a decision made behind closed doors. That’s how decisions are made nowadays too.
I believe that Greek culture held their gods above all else, in the sense that they are divine justice and decider.The characters in the Iliad made their own choices, to an extent. I believe the Greek's fate was decided by the literal "fates" who decided how an individuals life would turn out. The fates may have given a very broad idea for the person's life, in which they chose their direction although the end would be the same. Their moral alignment however, is completely up to themselves, this was not decided by the fates but the gods would hav a hand in this. I think Achilles is an awesome example, he had the ability to leave the war and not fight, but the gods and fates had already decided to force his hand by killing Patroclus.
ReplyDeleteI feel like if you can choose what side you are on and you can choose to be good or evil then you have free will. The gods have huge influence on the humans. Although you must have to be a great warrior for the gods to want to help you. -Jaspen Carr
ReplyDelete