Here's a short video that talks about how much translation matters, especially in an old and mysterious work like the Tao te Ching. Watch this when you get a chance and respond with a comment sometime next week. The poems that are part of the video, and the comment, are pasted below. Our version of the poem is on page 13.
ALSO: Be sure to respond to the questions in the post below by your class day. MANY people are forgetting to do the questions and are losing points (I'll let you miss a set of questions without penalty, but after that you lose points--see the syllabus for details). So be careful!
Poem 9 (translated by William Scott Wilson)
Better than holding the cup filled to the brim,
Is knowing when to stop.
If you continue to temper and sharpen a blade,
It will not hold its edge for long.
When gold and jewels fill the hall,
Keeping them under your roof will be difficult.
Riding the high horse of your own wealth and position,
You will invite censure all on your own.
When you have completed some meritorious deed,
Back out and go home.
This is heaven’s way.
Poem 9 (translated by Johnathan Star)
Grabbing and stuffing—
there is no end to it.
Sharpen a blade too much
and it’s edge will soon be lost.
Fill a house with gold and jade
and no one can protect it.
Puff yourself with honor and pride
and no one can save you from a fall.
Complete the task at hand
be selfless in your actions
This is the way of Heaven.
This is the way of Heaven.
The translation by Jonathan Star is the one that best captures the meaning of poem 9 to me. The poem is straight to the point, and does not sugarcoat anything. The one in our book truly is much more sophisticated, and the one by William Scott Wilson also adds a little bit more words to fluff up the true point, they both almost sounds like it is trying to state the point without hurting anyone's feelings. Jonathan Star makes the point clear and concise, and gives examples of things most of us can understand. It's seems to me like the version is Jonathan saying "it's this simple," like he doesn't need to add any other words to get this point across, because we all should understand. The language is perfectly clear to me, and does not use any extra words that may sweeten up the text.
ReplyDeleteGreat response--and I agree, it is the most direct, and it makes the poem seem much simpler than maybe it even is. But since we can't grasp the entire thing, why not simply be sure of at least one reading? I like his translation a lot, and I think the repetition at the end really hammers home the point. Our version is a bit more ornate and in keeping with 'literature,' whereas Star tries to make it simply accessible. With translations, sometimes it really does depend on which version you read. The wrong version can turn you off a great work forever!
DeleteFor me, the translation by Johnathan Star is the one that's easier to understand. I don't quite understand the one that's in the book, so I feel like it makes the reading a lot easier to comprehend by looking up translations. It was straight to the point with no further explanations. It interested me the most with the way it was just simple enough to know what he was talking about. It used clearer language than the one in the book. If I find translations for pages I don't understand well, it would help a lot to read different ones until I find the one that makes since to me.
ReplyDelete-Brittney Taylor
Yes, this is a good one because it's so clear and direct. We'll look at another translation of his in class on Monday. But I agree, seeing another translation can sometimes unlock a tricky passage or poem for you. That's why ideally, we would read more than one translation of the same poem...I wish there was a book that offered that!
DeleteThe translation that I feel is easiest to understand is the one by William Scott Wilson. It makes so much more sense in the beginning than the other two do, and following the meaning of the poem is much easier. The first few lines make so much sense that it's easy to follow, "Better than holding the cup filled to the brim, is knowing when to stop." This makes more sense than "rather than fill it to the brim by keeping it upright, better to have stopped in time" or "Grabbing and stuffing— there is no end to it." This clears up so much confusion right off the bat.
ReplyDeleteFIRST--let me know who you are! I need to give you credit!! :)
DeleteBut yes, I agree that our translation is a little wordier and a little more difficult, though this probably means it's also more accurate. So what should a translation be--accurate or helpful? I think Wilson is trying to do a little of both, though his is easier to grasp because he uses more modern English (it's a more recent translation). Jonathan Starr tries even more, and sometimes moves away from accuracy to help us really 'see' the poem. So you lose something and you gain something with every translation.
The poem translated Johnathan Starr was easier to translate to me. It seems more straight forward. The poem translated by William Scott seems like it’s written more poetically. There’s more of a flow to it. It sounds prettier but it’s a bit harder to understand. You really have to understand what he’s trying to say. With Johnathan he’s just trying to get the point across without making it sound too poetical.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great distinction between the two: Star IS more direct and more about meaning, whereas Wilson is more about the poetry and the literal sense of the original. So Wilson is harder, but more beautiful, while Star is easier but less fun to read solely as a poem. So you win some, and you lose some, with these translations!
DeleteThe translation by Jonathan Star was the easiest to translate to me. The poem is quite direct and gets straight to the point. This helps the reader grasp the text easier. The translation by Jonathan Star makes the point clear and gives the readers examples of things most of people can grasp and understand. During this translation, Jonathan Star saying the point is direct and it's this simple... Jonathan Starr doesn't need to add any other ideas or words to get the point across, because of simplistic and direct it is, we all should understand. In my opinion, the language is perfectly clear for me to understand. The text does not use any extra words that may make the text complex or make the text hard to understand for the reader.
ReplyDeleteYes, Star is famous for making old poems sound new, and this version really makes it sound like a modern poem. It's refreshing and direct, even if it's probably not as literal as the other two. We lose something by this approach, but we still gain a lot, too--a poem that we can immediately relate to our own life and experiences.
DeleteWilliam Carter
ReplyDeleteI feel like Lau's translation was the best since it was more formal. I want to feel and more somewhat formal whenever people talk to me. I want to impress, and if you're more formal, you impress more. However, my responses to assignments feel more like Star's translation: casual and humorous. Some of my responses are more casual because in real life, I am very casual, and that's just the way I am. Write casually, act formally; that's my motto. Nothing wrong with that.
That's a great point--Lau's IS the most formal of all three, and it's the one that tries to make it sound more 'old' or 'classical.' The other two try to make it sound a bit more natural and new, especially Star's version. I don't think he's trying to impress us, exactly, but he is trying to replicate how it sounds in the original Chinese. It we make it sound too casual, we might understand it better, but we could also argue it becomes a different poem by a different poet!
DeleteThe second translation is what makes more sense to me and it interested me more because it used metaphors and analogies that I understood better. This translation is better than the others because you can fully understand what is going on and it tells you to not be selfish and to be content with your life. I really liked how the verse said "sharpen a blade too much and its edge will soon be lost" and to me it means that if you keep picking on someone, it will soon hurt that person and they will lose their edge. I also really liked what it said about puffing yourself with honor and pride. It really gives a big picture of filling a person up with so much confidence.
ReplyDeleteYes, this version gives a very concrete image that is easy to relate to, and helps us understand the other ideas/metaphors as well. I like the idea that it "gives a big picture of filling a person up with so much confidence." That's a good reading of this poem.
DeleteMonica Guajardo:
ReplyDeleteThe second translation by Jonathan Star is easier to read and understand but I really like the way the first one is written by Wilson. Yes it is a tad harder to read but I feel like it gives more meaning in each line and more for the reader to think about and apply to different things. It is really formal and just completes a good picture with just those few lines. It is more of a poem and poems are interpreted differently from person to person and Star's translation doesn't really give you that wiggle room.
Great response--it is harder to read, but it also opens up more possibilities in the poem. I like the idea that it gives you more 'wiggle room." It's true that Star tends to make the poem mean something more specific (how he reads it), while Wilson, and our translation by Lau, tends to be more literal, and leave the poem more open to interpretation. So it's harder, but I think the poem is supposed to be harder!
Deletefor me its Lao version because it is really down to the point and its easy to picture it in my head its easy to read i wasn't hard to understand it didn't have to think about what it was meaning it literally said it on the page I feel comfortable reading this poem better then the others
ReplyDeleteYHelm:
ReplyDeleteI liked the beauty of Wilson's version, but preferred the directness of Starr's. This is mostly due to my tendency of wanting to get to the point quickly. The Wilson version, although it gives the same message, delivers it in a way that gives the reader an option to take it or leave it. The Starr version was so direct as to be demanding. This translation didn't leave any doubt of the author's intent.
The poem translated by William Scott Wilson was more interesting to me. I understand the message better and in my opinion it captured the meaning of verse 9. This poem uses words and phrases that help explain what the writer is wanting the reader to understand about living life. It is important to set goals, work hard, and be proud of your accomplishments but you must also be able to stay humble.
ReplyDeleteThe poem translated by Johnathan Star is clear and to the point, which can be a good thing, but to me it takes away the fun of digging deep into the poem and struggling with it. Being difficult to read and understand is what makes poems so beautiful to me. Therefore I like the translation by William Scott Wilson the best, it is easier to understand than the one in the book but it doesn't simplify it to the point where you don't have to dig to understand what is trying to be said. I think all the extra words, that can seem useless at times, is actually very important because if you really dig deep into the poems all the words become a part of the "picture" that is trying to be painted. They are there for a reason and I think it is to develop a more detailed and meaningful poem.
ReplyDeleteThe translation by Johnathan Star is the translation I feel captures the meaning of verse 9 best. When compared to the other two translations I felt this one to be easiest to follow and comprehend personally. I find it to be clear and up front. The images it uses are easier to understand in my mind. I don't believe that just because I can understand this translation easier it makes it the better one. Instead it disinterests me more than the other two translations as it is easy to grasp. The translation by D.C. Lau intersests me more as it commands more attention in my mind. Instead of being punchy and to the point like Star's translation I believe Lau's translation allows a bit more thought, elegancy, and connection.
ReplyDeleteThe translation by William Scott Wilson captures the best version of verse 9 to me. I feel this because in this version of the poem It brings more of a visual image to my head. Like I can see a cup filled to its brim, a sharpened blade, someone on a mighty horse, etc. I think this poem also flows better and gives a beautiful protective to the point that he is trying to get across. I don't necessarily like the bluntness of Johnathans version. I feel like it was meant to be more elegantly constructed than the way that he put it. Also I would love to add that I think Achilles should have read this poem!
ReplyDeleteWilliam Scott Wilson's translation, I feel, was more poetic, included more imagery, and overall easier to understand. Personally, because I am quite prideful, I would rather see myself on a pristine horse than as a frog. It also just sounds better, there is more to think about overall in Wilson's translation, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe poem by Jonathan star is as the easiest to follow. It was direct and didn’t beat around the bush. The poem to me was like my dad giving me a lecture. Got right to the point and I understood it. Although it wasn’t as interesting or even as poetic as the others, I felt it as the most understandable.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the poem translated by William Scott Wilson, is the easiest and most straightforward to read. I think however, if you read the same verses from different translations it is very helpful to understanding the meaning in a deeper sense. It is hard to pick a favorite translation, because each of them bring their own understanding into the equation, and I find it quite interesting to see the diverse translations.
ReplyDeleteBrooklyn Barnes
ReplyDeleteThe translation by William Scott is the easiest one for me to understand. It helped me see what he was talking about and it was pretty straight forward even though it's not as poetic as some of the other translations I feel like this one fits better for me to understand. I feel like he made it easier for me to understand by using imagery in the poem, for instance how he was talking about how if you sharpen a blade two long it'll eventually not hold its edge.
the poem by johnathan star isnt the easiest for me to read it looks simple but the poem by william scott is easier for me to understand for an example the first two lines " better than holdingbthe cup to the brim is knowing when to stop" which i feel that a simple line to understand its basicaly saying yeah you have this thing but do you know how to use it/ take care of it and thats basically how the rest of the poem goes but in johnothans its just boring and like saying hey do this dont do that and just not fun to read
ReplyDeletemicah mitchell
DeleteOluwatobi Afolabi
ReplyDeleteThe poem that makes more sense to me is the poem by" William Scott Wilson". I was able to understand from the first two lines
"Better than holding the cup to the brim,
Know when to stop".
These two lines are very explanatory. As a writer, I love this poem because he was able to sugarcoat his words. There's this feeling I get when I read the poem, it's not just an understanding poem but a motivational one.