Sorry for the delay--I had trouble uploading this video because it was initially too long (I had to shorten it). This is for next week, so be sure to watch it and comment before your class (or no later than the day of your class). NOTE that the question to respond to is in the video itself and not on the blog post. I did this because a few people got confused and I wanted everything to be together. So be sure to respond as a COMMENT below after you watch the video.
Enjoy!
The one that seems like it was written by a woman from a woman's point of view was page 185. I don't think men really like to describe how they're feeling towards someone, especially if they don't have the same feelings for that person so they just lead them on. Or if the guy is sad, they try to block out that they're actually emotional, but don't want to admit it because they were told not to express their feelings. In my opinion, this poem expressing a female perspective just describes a point a view from the person she was once in love with. She also described what the person wore and how they will remind one another of the "beautiful times" they had together.
ReplyDeleteThis is how I understood the question and hopefully it's right.
Yes, I agree--very well stated! Not that guys can't write poems like this, or make observations like this, but it was definitely unlikely in Sappho's time, and is often frowned upon in our own (where some guys won't even show emotion!). I love this little poem and I think it's very uniquely from Sappho's perspective as a woman, a mother, and probably as a lover, too. ALSO: be sure to include your name in your comment so I know who you are! Reply to this with your name if you get a chance (or I'll ask in class).
DeleteYHelm: The poem on pg 105 appears to be written by a woman, a mature woman specifically. It is only 2 lines:
Delete' For the man who is beautiful is beautiful to see
but the good man will at once also beautiful be'
Only a mature woman, who has experienced the difference between a physically attractive man and a man with inward beauty, would note the difference. The word "good" takes on a positive connotation.
Poem 4 on page 11 seems like it was uniquely written by a woman. The reason I feel this way is because of the emotion that comes from the poem. Back then, and even now, men do not want to write about love or what their heart wants. Specifically, the last two lines of the poem prove to me that it is a female poet on a female perspective because men of all ages have never wanted to admit to pain or tears. Crying is the biggest sign of weakness and they often believe should not be expressed unless it is because of the death of a loved one. I don't imagine a man would want to write a poem about love and how a heart can go on after their face has been stained before with tears from the relationship before.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is a good one! Can you imagine a guy saying "face...having been stained?" Unlikely, anyway. The quiet moments of two people in love, or the loss of that person, isn't a big theme in ancient literature until Sappho. It's almost like she figured out how to write about it, and after her, even some guys realized that it was worth writing about.
DeleteWilliam Carter
ReplyDeletePoem 94 on page 185-187 (the one where two people remember the good times they had before one of them dies) mostly seems like the one written by a woman. I'm not saying men can't be heartwarming or romantic but talking about "crown of violets" and "woven garland made of flowers" obviously seems womanly. Not a lot of men use flowers so romantically, they just use them to get what they want. Speaking of which, that is why men could not imagine the ancient Greece situation, because they could use women. Women were slaves who had no rights, and men had all the rights, so they do whatever they wanted, and I'm no woman, but being treated like a slave doesn't sound awesome. This is why the female perspective works in the ancient world. Women had pain and hardships to battle and some made it through while others didn't. Men had no suffering back so the poems they'd write were boring and uninspiring. Poems to me are caring and inspiring and this works for women because they had something to fight through and something to care about. This is why the female poetry is so unique suited to the perspective.
Great responses! And while men definitely had suffering in the ancient world, it was different than women's, and they either couldn't imagine it or rarely cared to (though we'll see some awareness of a woman's lot in The Iliad). Sappho is the first one who made a woman's life and suffering into real literature. It took a while for this to catch on, though!
DeleteMonica Guajardo
ReplyDeleteI feel like the poem on page 105 was written by a woman. I don't think men at that time looked into the depth of being a good man, rather than just pretty. I also don't think that a man would write about another man being 'beautiful.' I think this is expressly a woman because she is saying look past the beauty of a man to see if he is truly good hearted, she is saying look past the outside and see their true character. The last of the two lines says that a good man will be beautiful (you know inside and out.)
Great responses--that's a perfect one to look at, since it captures a uniquely feminine (at least for the time) point of view.
DeleteThe poem on page 63 is definitely written by a women because you don't see a man describe his feelings when he is in love that way even in todays society. I feel like back in ancient Greece, being vulnerable as a man would make it seem like they are weak, so men back want to seem strong and emotionless. As a female writing this poem in the ancient world, it makes sense just because of the word usage/translation that the poem is in. And especially since the feeling in this poem is a bit of jealousy/anger, a female experiencing these emotions in ancient Greece can't really do anything.
ReplyDeleteDarcie Kaiser
DeleteYes, great point--showing weakness wouldn't be high on their list! But being emotionally vulnerable and showing weakness is what makes us human, and what makes her poems so compelling, even when incomplete.
DeleteThe poem on page 119 could be written from a woman's point of view. She seems angry that an innocent country girl who is beautiful, is looked at men in such a vulgar way. The men are seduced by her beauty and, because she is pure and innocent, take advantage of her. She who does not know "how to pull the cloth to her ankles" is taken by men. Men of that time would not have seen it as a problem. Women were just objects. They wouldn't be offended by the poem. They would have seen it as a compliment. This is definitely something that a women of such an oppressive time would write/sing about. Sappho's perspective is that women are abused and taken advantage of simply because they were not lucky enough to be born as a man. This, to me, is why this poem is an example of the female perspective of what was going on in the ancient world.
ReplyDeleteMake sure to give your name in the comments so I can give you credit! :)
DeleteBut yes, this is a great poem to choose and you give us a great analysis of it, too! But another way to look at it is less charitable: she could also be scolding her lover for making eyes at another girl who is just from the country, a "hick," so to speak, who doesn't know how to act in society. And obviously the speaker thinks he/she is much more sophisticated, and thus, more worth looking at! :)
I feel like poem 23 was written by a woman. I do not think a guy would word and describe it like that. It dose not sound like a men when it says "among moral woman, know this". It makes it sound like it is coming from a mortal woman.
ReplyDelete#1: Be sure to give me your name in the comments so I can give you credit, and #2: be a little more specific. What makes them poem sound so feminine? How does she describe the subject--and what is the subject? Give me a little more to go on.
DeleteOne of the poems that stuck out to me was poem 23 when it talks about the color of the hair and expressing the way it flows like a riverbank. To me I think this is definitely a women that is expressing herself and how she looks. Some women do enjoy talking about themselves and how they look. From what I've noticed from men is they don't really enjoy expressing their emotions or they just aren't used to doing it. Doesn't mean all men are the same because they aren't they just aren't the best at expressing their feelings. This gives them a better chance of understanding what these women liked to do and what kind of beauty they enjoy looking like when they wake up in the morning.
ReplyDeleteYes, great response--I like the details you bring out in this poem. And as you suggest, it's a poem of raw emotions and sincere love of beauty--not exactly what men choose to write about at this time. Very good!
DeleteALSO: Be sure to give me your name so I know who this is!
A poem that I believe was written by a woman was on page 105. I believe men at this time cared more about outward appearance, like muscles and the shape of their body. The male body was extremely valued in this time and was compared to the gods bodies. I also believe at this time it would be very uncommon for a man to call another man beautiful. This female author is definitely looking past outward appearance to see the beauty within this person
ReplyDeleteGood response...and while a man might call another man beautiful (the Greeks weren't shy about having same-sex partners), it wasn't the predominant subject for poetry. And the idea behind this seems more suited to women and the idea of marriage, esp. an arranged marriage. The idea that someone you don't know and aren't in love with could one day become your best friend and lover. But you have to look a little deeper.
DeleteKoby McClain
ReplyDeleteA poem that stands out to me would be the one on page 50. The speaker talks from an outside point of view on what determines beauty. The speaker explains how being a good man sets you apart from other men, as if the speaker has an outside point of view. Most men were focused on materialistic things at this time and not worried about being considered a "good man."
Yes, great responses--this is an anti-materialistic poem, at least these two lines, and suggests that true understanding is only achieved over time, and by looking past the surface to find the 'goodness' within. Beauty simply isn't enough, since you're born with it (or not), and goodness has to be achieved and earned.
DeleteBrooklyn Barnes
ReplyDeleteA poem that stood out to me would be the comment on page 105 which was a lady giving advice to a younger female that they should look on the inside beauty instead of the outside beauty while trying to be a relationship with a man. I thought it was unique because women today still receive this advice and knowing that it was advice given so many years ago shows that we should probably use it. I don't think a man would write about something like this because they want to write about more masculine things like wars and monsters.
Yes, great response--this is a popular poem, I think, because it's such a modern idea that we use even today. I think, too, it wouldn't necessarily occur to a man of the time because they weren't worried about a woman looking for love, or not finding it. This is a poem about where to find love, and how to fall in love, and probably from a female perspective. Not something they felt was worthy of great literature!
Deletefor me i think its page 69 she talks about how beautiful the sky is in great depth and you can just tell that a guy would never describe something that elegant like the way she did guys don't really think very sentimental like girls do and you can just tell its written by a girl
ReplyDeleteYes, I love this poem, since it uses the beauty of nature as a backdrop for the object of one's affection. It's very poetic and the words and images are used in a thousand pop songs. But Sappho got there first!
DeleteI feel as though the poem on page 69 could have only been written by a woman. I don't think men would have written about something that alludes to nature. Though the poem, to me, isn't really describing the moon and the sun, it still references them and a man would not have described someone or a situation by using nature. I just don't think that they payed much attention to those thing nor did they appreciate them so they would not have taken the time to reference nature in their writings. I think that in some cases that is still present today as well.
ReplyDeleteYes, good response! And while men did write about the natural world, it was usually as a backdrop for something bigger--not the 'small' world of love and someone you love. Sappho means the internal dramas seem as large as the world, more brilliant than the moon and the stars. She was one of the first writers who did this, and made us realize that everyone is worthy of songs and literature. Our lives are epic even if we just go to work, fall in love, get married, and have kids.
DeleteI think the poem of 45 could be written by a women. It’s incomplete but it seems like she’s reminiscing of the old times. When she was young, maybe playing with other kids. Young boys. At that time they were seen as just children. But as she grew older the boy turned into young men. They were valued for their manhood. Their opinions mattered and was thought highly of. And she was stuck. In the body of a women. Limited. So she’s telling the men they couldn’t understand what it’s like to be a women because their lives are so different.
ReplyDeleteYes, an excellent poem to choose and a great analysis of this poem! This might be exactly what's going on behind the scenes of this poem, and it's such a powerful and modern idea. Not at all what people were thinking back then (as far as we know!).
DeleteGoing back to the beginning I believe that poem 2 on pages 6 and 7 are more likely to be written by a woman. This poem describes a beautiful scenery and even in this world, men do not usually write about scenery, men typically write more about action, especially Ancient Greek times men. Poem 2 is clearly about an ancient world, as Sappho described churches burning frankencense and roses that overshadow everything, today, you might see a clean cut rose bush ever other town. I know some some churches still burn oils and candles, but Sappho wrote like it was very common, where it is not in today's world.
ReplyDeleteYes, great points--she does notice the little things in life, the flowers and clothing that would often be overlooked by someone else. And she makes these little things seem big--as important as anything else you could imagine in the world. Because whatever you love IS the entire world for you.
DeleteI can easily see the poem on page 13 to be written by a woman. She's praying to the Gods asking for them to make her brother kind and no longer sad. She also asks for him to " willingly give his sister her portion of honor". Back in those times I do not think a man would write something like that. I also don't think a man would pray for something like this. To almost make him "weaker" in a way.
ReplyDeleteBe sure to include your name in the comment so I can give you credit!
DeleteYes, I love this poem--it shows the perspective of the women left at home, not allowed to sail off into foreign lands, waiting for their husbands and brothers to come home. And she feels so powerless. What can she do but pray? This isn't a perspective we often get in ancient literature--we usually get the men on heroic adventures...not the women tending the houses and cattle back home.
Matthew Throneberry
ReplyDeleteThe poem that I had felt was uniquely written by a woman was on page 105. When reading the poem, it has made me feel the poem was written from a woman who was giving her opinion on men. Saying that its not about their looks, but the goodness of their hearts. That she believes a man with a good heart is more beautiful to her than a man with good lucks. After reading the poem, I could feel the sincere message that the writer was trying to get across
To me, the poem on page 63 feels like it was written by a woman. Most men would not express their feelings in this way. The lady in this poem gives many examples of compassion that many men would not think to write. She is angry and has a lot of jealousy and you can tell through her words. This woman used certain words to express her emotions that a man in ancient Greek times just wouldn't use. This poem would show a sign of weakness or cowardliness in a man during these times, so it just makes sense that it is a woman.
ReplyDeleteA poem that always sticks out to me is the poem on page 63. I feel like this poem was written from the female perspective. Given the time it was written, I don't think men were seen to be 'in tune' with their emotions and expressing them through poetry. (Not saying a man wasn't capable, of course!) Ancient Greek men at the time probably were quite the emotionless creature. If a male were to openly voice his emotions he would be seen as "frail" and be labeled an outcast by other men. The feeling of jealousy and envy from this poem are typical emotions that a female would experience more often than a male. Nevertheless, it's normal to feel that way when you see the person you long for giving attention to someone else.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the poem on page 105 was written by a woman. The poem seems to be describing the looks of a man which was more common to happen back then. Men were more focused on different subjects back then such as war. I also feel like if a man wrote this it would be more about the looks of the person not about how beautiful they are inside. This poem is about how this man no matter how he looks is being judged solely by his personality which I feel women do more often then men.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though poem number 50, found on page 105, is a poem that to me says "only a woman would write this." Poem 50 speaks about outward beauty of a man and how women must not solely focus on this because, although beautiful men are nice to look at, it is good men who in the end will truly be beautiful. Whether that be how a man treats a woman or in general if he's just a good guy. Only a woman would write this because it, first specifically talks about men, and secondly I think the advice this poem talks about is non-relatable for men at that time. Women were not given much attention at that time so a man would not think about such things when choosing a partner. I also feel that even now women care more about the personality of a person when choosing a partner over how that person looks compared to men, not to say that men don't, but in general I feel as though men are more easily attracted by physical beauty rather than personality. I especially feel this way when regarding to the culture at the time of Sappho when women weren't regarded by men nearly as much as now.
ReplyDeleteOluwatobi
ReplyDeleteThe poem that sticks out to me is the poem in fragment 132. References were made to Sappho daughter (cleis). It is is known that Sappho is a lover of women and the poem in this fragment simply justified it. A man might not be able to imagine this situation because he is not used to expressing his emotions. Men hardly express how they feel, they are usually not into the "love thing". The poem was about Sappho's daughter Cleis.
"I have a beautiful child whose face is like golden flowers, my beloved Cleis.
The poem on page 13 is very clearly written by a woman when she stated that she is a sister to a brother. She talks about all the wrong her brother has done and how she thinks that he deserves forgiveness possibly. She prayed to the gods for her brothers safe return from somewhere, physically or mentally maybe. Men were the main ones working and fighting in this time, I don't really feel like they would write about praying to the gods about the forgiveness of somebody else.
ReplyDeleteOn page 101 there is poem #48, the poem has only two sentences but I do not get the feeling that a man in ancient Greece would have freely expressed himself this way. The poem says, you came and I was crazy for you and you cooled my mind that burned with longing.
ReplyDeleteThe part of the poem "crazy for you" is more of an emotion from a woman's point of view. As the poem ends with "burned with longing" my opinion would be this is unique to a woman's way of expressing her love to someone.
This is my response I'm replying too I forgot to put my name.
DeletePoem 42 page 85 is a short poem by a women trying to express how she feels. Men 2,000 years ago or during there time was the leaders, soilders, farmers,etc. who would be the one in the house working more, I do not think men would have wrote something like this. This poem is unique because she is expressing how she feels and how she gets treated by men.
ReplyDeleteThe poem that stuck out to me the most is Poem 34 Page 69. Although it's short it is quite meaningful.
ReplyDeletestars around the beautiful moon
hide back their luminous form
whenever all full she shines
on earth
silvery
This poem stuck out to me this most because of how beautifully it was written and it is definitely written by a woman . It helped me piece together that Sappho was in love with another woman because in my opinion no man back in this time would talk about a woman like this. Most men back then wrote about war. That's why Sappho stuck out as a poet because she wrote about what men wouldn't write about.
The poem that stuck out to me 100% is the one on page 73. It a few words, "you burn me". The different meanings that this could have hints to me that this was written by a woman. She could be hurting, but she could also be so in love. The possibilities are endless. Most men then and now would be so clueless to what this could mean, you would never imagine them opening up and especially with such simple words.
ReplyDelete