For Monday: Sappho, Stung with Love: “Desire and Death
Longing” and “Her Girls and Family” (pp.21-53)
Answer TWO of the following in
a short paragraph, at least 3-4 sentences, but be as specific as possible. No one sentence answers will get credit,
since I want to see what you think,
not just what you can say.
1. How does Sappho use metaphors to capture the experience of love, desire, heartbreak, nostalgia, or some other emotion? Choose a specific poem and discuss why the metaphors are very relatable to a modern audience. Remember that metaphors put one experience in terms of another so we can see/understand them in a different light. For example, on page 5 we had "the leaves drip slumber," which isn't possible, but it seems possible since the leaves are calm, soothing, and can lull us to sleep.
2. If many of these
poems are by women to other women, what kind of love do they express?
Remember that there is only one word for love in the English language,
but other languages have many words for the differnet kinds of love. So a
"love" poem in ancient Greek might not necessarily be sexual in
nature. Do you see that here--are these 'friendship' love poems, or
something much more passionate? Why do you think so?
3. How might many of
these poems support the idea that Sappho was a mother, and regarded many of the
women around her as her daughters? Why might a mother relate to many of
the sentiments/emotions in these poems?
4. Why might we consider
these poems 'snapshots' of the lives of women in ancient Greece? What
does it reveal about their lives, hardships, relationships, and desires?
What might Sappho have wanted her readers to see/hear about the true
nature of women, who were supposed to be 'seen but not heard' in the ancient
world?
3. On page 49 Sappho claims to have a daughter, and while this is apparently met with some speculation, it is clear to see that Sappho possesses various maternal qualities. In this particular poem she expresses adoration for the daughter and claims to value her love (and any other love, for that matter) above all else. Page 41 describes especially parental qualities; "The people I most strive to please/ Do me the worst injuries..." reminds me of a parent struggling to connect with a moody teenage; next she expresses pride in her girls' creations, and "creations of their own" implies that the girls were first created perhaps by Sappho. Page 33 sounds to me like a mother admiring not only her daughter's beauty, but the "contemplative" qualities that others might not immediately value. The translator tells us that eye contact is especially important between lovers and rivals, so the line "Stand and face me, dear; release/ That fineness in your irises," could exemplify the mother's acknowledgement of her daughter's sexuality as well as the burgeoning rivalry between aging mother and youthful daughter.
ReplyDelete4. Sappho's writing proves that women possess all the passions of life. She writes of typically female experiences when she speaks of a love of extravagance on page 33, what not to wear on page 35, and ornamental fashion on page 51, but she also reveals a depth that I'm sure was rarely attributed to women. On page 21 she employs a violent, Homer-like metaphor, "Like a gale smiting an oak/ On a mountainous terrain," and on the next page she throws out some scientific knowledge when she describes the physiological symptoms of love. By page 25 she has proven that women experience complex relationships that are deeply passionate and valuable to their existence as humans. The poem on page 45 displays wisdom in the aging process and reveals the disappointing loss of the feminine attributes which are thought to give value to a woman. This poem is especially telling as it gives voice to the woman as a human person as opposed to a beautiful object that has lost its meaning once the luster has vanished.
Excellent, very detailed responses: I love the exploration of the mother/daughter relationship in #3. The idea of "stand and face me" is compelling, since in this world, the very act of maturation and marriage would break up this relationship--women are expected to become the property of another man and family, so Sappho would want to teach them not to devalue these relationships the way their society did.
Delete3. On page 41 she talks about “do the worst injuries” to me shows that sometimes in a family argument, (mother/daughter or siblings) hurtful words are said. Every parent has been through this, and words can wound the soul. However, on the other hand, your children can do something or say something that makes you the most proud or boastful in the next breathe.
ReplyDelete4. On page 33 Sappho says that women who have an inheritance (money or beauty) want and enjoy the trappings of glamour and glitter and enjoy a more privileged life. Again on page 37 she talks about the being beautiful and well dressed life was easier. On page 45 she explains how she has become old no longer the youthful beauty as before, and no longer feels wanted. Being well dressed and beautiful seemed to important, it showed where women were more an object to be looked at, as in “seen but not heard”. .
Great responses and details: I like how you tie #3 into the fears/desires of a parent, and how much a child can wound them--yet a moment later resurrect them. An important reading.
Delete2. I think there is a level of passion and desire in many of the poem fragments contained in these works. What we don’t know is that if we are truly dealing with love in the sense of a sexual relationship or love in the sense of a bond or connection that is deeper than what we deal with in our day to day lives now. I think that because of the segregation of the sexes, the gender roles that were clearly delineated and the women’s desire to be relevant beyond just a maiden, housewife or child bearer, that we see these connections deepened beyond our levels of understanding. All women shared the same plight in these days, they were connected through a suffering of their position in society. I think that created some sexual tension, which is prevalent in Sappho’s works, that is present and appears to be deeper than just a “friendship” relationship. Those types of relationships don’t have to involve sex, but can have a level of intimacy that only exists in what we consider long-term marriage type relationships today.
ReplyDelete4. Many of these poems capture the essence of what it was to be a woman during these times in ancient Greece. They all dwell in the same subject matter of love, longing, desire, suffering from loss of love, and so on. Sappho appears to be the spokesperson for burdened love, both internally and externally. The subject matter of the poems does not stray from the subject of love or interest in another which indicates that there weren't many other subjects that were of interest to women in this time. Whether done so by choice or because they didn't know any other means it appears that this was their only voice. It shows that there was an expectation for women to be loved and to love but not to have any desires for oneself other than providing that for another person. I believe that Sappho fully wanted readers to understand that women were capable of so much more than just love. By writing she already had a voice that challenged the social norm. I believe she wanted to show a value that exceeded the expectations of her society of a woman to love or be loved.
Excellent responses: these poems clearly show the female side of the 'humanities' that men didn't see or didn't think made for good literature. It also shows the depths of female relationships that could be sexual but could also simply be profound friendships (and they probably wouldn't have such friendships with their husbands). But you're right, the limited subject matter (maybe Sappho wrote about more that didn't survive) suggests their very small, prescribed world. They did the most with what they had, perhaps.
Delete1. page 23- I find it intriguing Sappho starts with such a powerful comparison by placing man on a pedal stool. As being man made in God's image, we reflect and look as our creator yes, but she goes further in implying her soon obsession over this individual. Her longing to be face- to- face for it is pleasant. This is relatable for we still go through this in our day and age and will forever continue to, it's our human nature and love language, But then something changes, life happens in this poem, Sappho's expresses the desire that longs so deeply is now a hurt broken heart that suffers. We see this time and time again in relationships, its about taking risks, Sappho is merely describing the agonizing suffering we can go through within this process.
ReplyDelete3. Sappho throughout her poetry displays a women who is transparent and wants to display that to the women around her, This to me is a quality and trait I've always seen in my mother, so reading lines on page 39; Atthis, you looked at what I was and I hated what you saw.... gives me the notion she has a mother instinct that strives to do best by these other women. But to me in 41, what helped piece together how much these women truly do mean to her is the first stanza. Isn't so true that we want to always make our Momma's proud, but when we at times feel it's not good enough, those wounds cut so deep to me, Sappho helped paint that picture vividly for me in this.
Great responses--I like how you tie this into your own mother, and see Sappho in her (or at least emotions you can relate to). This is important, since Sappho is describing very raw, recognizable human relationships and not something abstract about gods and goddesses.
Delete3. Sappho’s poem do support that she is a mother because in one of her poems/fragments she refrences her daughter Kleïs. Sappho never really out right claims any other girls in her poetry as her daughters but she does show great emotion and fondness for a few girls throughout her writing. In one of her fragments beginning with “In all honesty, I want to die;” she is talking about giving her blessing for this girl to leave, and that she will remember all the wonderful times they spent together. There is no clear identity of who Sappho is speaking too, but in my opinion I feel as if this a mother giving that “Leaving the nest” speech that most mothers do with their children when they are leaving home. Even if this not a reference to Sappho’s daughter it still shows that Sappho is very close to her friends and cares about them very deeply, and maybe her friends might look to her as a mother figure because of the wisdom she has. Mothers from todays time might relate to Sappho’s work because she is very affectionate and open about the love she has, and seems to be very nurturing. Mothers are always seen as the nurturing, caring figure in Parent/Child relationships, and I believe a lot of mothers can relate to Sappho’s feeling towards her friends and “daughters” that mothers feel for their children.
ReplyDelete4. Women in ancient times were seen as property and not as people. Their views and feelings were never thought of as important, so they were never really asked how they felt about certain things or people or what their opinion was. This could be one of the main reasons Sappho wrote poetry she had to find a way to express herself and her feelings to her friends, while still staying in the “guidelines” of that was expected of women. Sappho’s poems show how woman desired to be loved and have love. It was not deemed “normal” back then for two women to have a compassionate relationship, and if Sappho was truly having relationships with these women that she is writing about then its not like she could publically come out about it. Women had no choice in who they married and they person they might have ended up with sometimes wasn’t always their “knight in shining armor”. Sappho’s poems show how women had to keep their feelings hidden and to themselves because there was no place for womens views in society. So even if Sappho truly loved one of her female friends the only way she could express it is to write about it.
Great, detailed responses--nice context for understanding the emotions and relationships behind the poems. There's so much we can't know, but we can know how Sappho felt thanks to the poetry, and as you suggest, they reveal the strong affections of women who grew up together and had only one another for support.
Delete2) I think that some of these poems are actually a love poem to somebody that lives in the same village as her. I can tell that she really didn't want to tell her friend bye and give up on what they had together. I know that when i say bye to a friend I won't be that passionate about it like she was with hers. It seems like she wouldn't be able to see or talk to her again.
ReplyDelete4) It seems like Sappho was trying to show the friendship and desires rolled up into one thing. The women in ancient Greece had feelings for each other that went passed friendships. I think that they had to hide their true feelings when they are in public. They couldn't show people how they really feel. In her poems you never see that they was out of the house together.
Good responses--just try to tie your readings/interpretations into a specific line or passage so we can see why you see it this way. Clearly, as you suggest, the women had to hide their feelings, and these poems show the hidden world that men either didn't see or felt was unworthy of true literature.
Delete1. Sappho is able to use metaphors and the like to regale emotions, such as longing and jealousy, to a modern audience from the poem on page 23. The narrator begins by describing a man as “god’s double” because he is talking to the object of the narrator's desire. The narrator then proceeds to describe her body’s reactions to the girl’s laughter. Jealousy runs rampant throughout her body as her heart and stomach flutter, she cannot talk because her tongue is “shattered,” she cannot hear because her ears are full of “thunder,” she cannot she because her vision is “hazy,” and her skin feels as if it is on fire. The narrator ends the poem saying she will continue to suffer because she is worthless to who she pines after. These are all relatable to someone who has ever seen another person they love, but think they do not deserve, talking to another person that could give them more.
ReplyDelete4. In Sappho’s poetry, she reveals many details of the lives of women in ancient Greece. The loss of friendship, the loss of self, and what could be gained when beauty is properly used. On page 25, Sappho is having a conversation with a girl that is about to leave, and Sappho tells the girl to remember all of the things they did together. It is hard for women to express their feelings and desires, because they are expected to remain as trophies for men to flaunt, whether they be a father or husband. Women were constantly having to fold themselves back into the person they were supposed to be, and this is described on page 27. But women who knew what a gorgeous face and showy clothes could accomplish, as shown on page 35, were able to more successfully take themselves out of the box they were placed in.
Great responses: as you suggest, these poems document the secret but true relationships women had with one another, and which few men would ever be aware of. The poem on page 25 is powerful since Sappho knows she'll probably never see this girl again, and the idea of remembering what they had is strong: as if to say, they can't take away our memories, no matter what they do to the rest of us.
DeleteTaylor Hunter
ReplyDelete#4 Sappho paints a pretty picture in all of her poetry and I’m honestly awed by it. She either writes about a setting or an emotion that she or one of her daughters are feeling. I feel like outside of their love life’s they live pretty easy lives. If her poetry was an example of women during her time they all seem love sick crazy.
#2 In Sappho’s poetry none of the love seemed like lesbian love. I feel like she has a really deep profound love for her friends but not in a sexual love. Even while she did obviously talk sexually about younger women it just didn’t feel like it came from her but more of a man’s standpoint. She’s also very motherly towards her students and I feel she writes through her daughters.
Very interesting responses--but try to show us where you see the qualities you discuss. If it's not sexual/sensual love, where do you see something different? Help us see this, since this is a compelling reading and many would disagree. Also, why are these women so love crazy--and will readers of the future get the same idea about us if they looked through an anthology of our songs?
DeleteAndrew Reeves
ReplyDelete#2 In the poem on page 51 i felt that Sappho was reminiscing about her love for her mother. She was remembering a time when her mother told her of how headbands were a trend gaining popularity in the time of her youth, and comparing it to the current trend of placing flowers in their hair; though headbands were on the rise as a recurring rising trend. While a lot of the other poems in this section were very filled with emotion, this poem was more subtle and just hinted at the emotion she was feeling while telling a story.
#4 This poem seemed to paint a perfect portrait of everyday life in this time period for women. It painted a great picture of how trends rose, faded away, and then reemerged. This may not have helped to reveal much about other aspects of life for women in this time period, but it did show how Sappho felt when remembering her mother's stories of trends as well giving us insight into how fashion in their society developed.
Good responses--and I know you were at a disadvantage since you didn't have the poems until today. But try not to answer both questions with the same poem: branch out a little so you can see/explore different things.
Delete#2 In one of her poems, Sappho writes about a love she experienced with another girl. I believe it is passionate love because she speaks of heartbreak I can associate with a "breakup". "You will have memories Because of what we did back then....Yes, we did many things, then - all Beautiful..."This line offers that they might have been physically involved, and shared something beautiful together. "I loved you once, years ago, Atthis, When your flower was in place" I imagine she loved this girl when perhaps they were both young, or her lover was young. Maybe they are departing and Sappho is saying "You will remember me, because I've loved you since you were young. Assuming this women is now old.But, then there is pain and heartbreak and Sappho says "you looked at what I was And hated what you saw" which can only mean, they were in love, deeply in love, and Atthis saw something in Sappho that she didn't love or maybe something she didn't understand.
ReplyDelete#3 Sappho was a mother obviously because she has a poem she wrote about her daughter. Now is speculation she was a lesbian then there is no way she would get married but we know that she taught a "finishing" school or girls who were very young and she could develop mother-like emotions and bonds with these girls. "And I adore her. I would refuse all Lydia's glitter for her And other love." This is a line about her daughter, and you can see the bond and love she has for and with her daughter, and perhaps all of the other girls she's taught.
Excellent responses--very detailed and thoughtful!
Delete1. Ajax thinks that Achilles’ is stubborn for not coming back to help fight for those he loved and that his main reason is over the stolen girl, and this is not a valid enough reason. He says “The gods have replaced your heart with flint and malice, because of one girl. One single girl, while we are offering you seven of the finest women to be found and many other gifts. “
ReplyDelete2. I like this passage that Achilles’ expressed about war, “….Not after the thanks I get for fighting this war, Going up against the enemy dad after day, It doesn’t matter if you stay in camp or fight – In the end, everybody comes out the same. Coward and hero get the same reward.” He is war weary and mad when he says that Agamemnon won while other did the fighting, he gave little away to those others, but at least the others got to keep their reward, but Achilles’ reward, the girl, was taken from him. I think in the begging the speech was heroic, but he started sounding more and more bitter. I don’t think a soldier today would talk like that. I don’t feel that today’s solider would trash talk other officers or soldiers. Our soldiers today have learned respect even if they disagree.