Sappho, Stung With Love (pp.57-79), "Troy" and "Maidens and Marriages"
Answer TWO of the following…
Answer TWO of the following…
In one of her famous
poems, “Some call ships, infantry or horsemen” (p.59), Sappho confronts male
ideas of beauty with a female perspective.
How does she do this—and why does she use the figure of Helen of Troy
(the infamous beauty who ran off with Paris and abandoned her husband/children)? According to this poem at least, what makes
women different from men when it comes to love?
2. Which fragments seem almost too broken to make sense of? How might you reconstruct the story/ideas
behind them to give them more context?
What makes you think this might be the real story behind this
fragment? Be specific…
3. Some of the poems in the last part of our reading are wedding
songs, which celebrate the wedding night of the bride and groom. How do these poems show us a different side
of Sappho’s art? Why might these poems
have been as scandalous to later ages as her poems about female love?
3. Sappho's poems regarding marriage and consummation are celebratory, but I also hear a hints of warning in some of the fragments. Page 67 seems to counsel young maidens to guard their virginity; the second fragment on page 75 presents an outrageous groom who embodies phallic intimidation. Both of these pieces are too revealing not to be considered scandalous by pious crowds, but surely they were useful educational tools for naive women who did not have the opportunity for relaxed sexual exploration. Referring back to page 75, the "supple seedling, a green tree" metaphor for the appearance of the husband-to-be is wildly funny because women rarely make penis jokes, but it is also considered wildly inappropriate for a woman to reference a phallus, especially when mocking and emasculating it.
ReplyDelete4. Several of Sappho's Maidens and Marriages poems seem to serve the purpose of artistic sex education materials. Not being exposed to a husband before the marriage night, the sudden introduction of heterosexual intercourse must be overwhelming for a young woman. Sappho offers advice to maidens, warning them against being "treaded flat" (p. 67), encourages the celebration of the wedding ceremonies, mocks and familiarizes the male member, and promises bliss in marital encounters. Sappho's poems were surely a source of comfort to many clueless young women.
Great responses--and excellent details from the poems. As you suggest, even in the humor there's a bit of fear and tragedy. This is a world where no one is really there to protect the women; she had to do that for them. Her poetry was the best gift she could leave them, a source of never-ending comfort and advice.
DeleteMargaret Mitchell
ReplyDelete1. In a way, Sappho says everything she needs to say regarding how men and women look at love differently in the first stanza. “Some call ships, infantry or horsemen The greatest beauty earth can offer; I say it is whatever a person lusts after”. Ships, infantry or horsemen are typically the thing mean categorize love with. All things mighty and strong. Women on the other hand don’t too much care for how strong something is or how vast something is. They want to feel like they are loved. Simple as that. That is where women and men look at love differently. Maybe not so much in modern times to an extent but definitely in the ancient times.
4. I believe Sappho wanted her daughters (or whoever she may have been talking about) and the generations to come, to pay close attention to their worth. She uses the illustration of an out of reach ripe red apple, that people see, but look past because it is too high. That is a woman’s worth. She wanted them to realize that when a time came that the daughters, or whomever, came to question their worth, to remember how high they are on that apple tree.
Great responses--nice details from the poems as well. I like the idea that Helen didn't want to love things, she wanted to be loved. Perhaps that is a big difference between men and women, the difference between possession and giving?
DeleteAndrew Reeves
ReplyDelete3. On page 57 we have an entire wedding song. Sappho uses a different side of her poetry and tries to describe the entire scene objectively, unlike her other works where she uses as much emotionally charged language as possible to give the reader impressions of the characters thoughts and personalities. In this work she uses her colorful language to pain a picture of the scene, and not focusing on the individual people involved; as she usually does. This other side to her poetry makes i seem earthy because all of the ordinary people described are done so in great general detail, without focusing on any one person for long; though she changes this at the end when she begins describing the couple and elevating them to godlike status, which is a common thing to do in this modern age. Sappho doing the same thing we do in modern times at weddings and elevating a couples status to godhood, or the most holy union our society can think of, makes this this poem more relate-able to the modern reader.
4. In Maidens and Marriages the poems definitely seem to be giving generational advice through proverb-esque language and phrases. Sappho seems to want to give her female readers the advice of being aloof, that seeming unobtainable will make you more desirable. This seems to be great advice for the age she was in. Women were treated harshly in their society in the past and their best bet to securing a decent future was most likely to be very beautiful and to scorn advances of all men and to seem uninterested, or to seem as though you accept their advances but are just patronizing them, making the men feel that you desirable, but on a different level than them, or even accepting their advances while seeming bemused, as if you are just playing with them; thus creating hype and making men want to compete for her. all in all this increases her value, providing an opportunity to increase her dowry to be paid by her suitors to help secure her families lifestyle and finances. We see that Sappho is implying this due to her next poem about no longer being a maiden, and thus no longer being the same; this implies a certain finality to this stage of the woman's life and suggests that Sappho is advising the female readers to enjoy their lives while they can, before that part of their life ends.
Great responses and analysis here--very insightful. As you suggest, we can read a lot into the life cycle of a woman at this time, and the various pitfalls that stood in her way. Despite having a very prescribed life, it was very easy to fall off the path and become "worthless." Sappho knew the dangers of being a woman in her society--perhaps from very personal experience.
Delete1. My feeling is that Sappho does a great job of attacking the idea of beauty from the male perspective. Power is beautiful to most men, whether it be military power, or power in a job position or family life. But to have beauty, or in this case power, does not necessarily mean that you can recognize its true depths. In the case of Helen of Troy she left her husband, child and family without thoughts of how it would affect them. She was all consumed with herself and well-being. A flaw that women would see immediately because it affects us directly emotionally. Men are quick to miss this because they tend to recognize superficial beauty as true beauty, unlike women who delve deeper into a person’s psyche and story to find the true beauty within a person.
ReplyDelete4. The poems that reside in “Maidens and Marriages” are complex works that give an appearance that they are giving advice from mother to daughter. It struck me that although some of the works, like “Groomsmen” on p. 73, are directed to the men, but seem to serve as a warning to the bride. Sappho makes the brides out to be perfect women capable of love and beauty that is unmatched by other suitors. However on p. 67 we find a group of poems that seem to be speaking directly to the bride or brides. This work indicates that one should not just settle for the apple at the bottom that is easily picked, but to go for the apple higher up on the tree that might be sweeter and harder to pick. I think this is a great message for women, I don’t know how feasible it was for women at the time to be able to pick their suitor, but I think it was something that Sappho wanted women to strive for. To be a better woman and seek better relationships and life situations, to be happier.
Great responses--I especially like your discussion of how Sappho distinguishes male and female love. Perhaps men are lured by the superficial aspects more than the women (or some women?) who see the love/lust behind the object?
Delete1. Sappho is trying to let people know that the way the men and women view love is completely different. When men sees ships he thinks about all the awesome stuff that he can do with it. Like Sappho says "Most Lust after" most men do lust after material things. Women could care less about material things. She uses Helen as an example because she went after something that was beauty instead of staying with something that everybody wanted and what they saw as beautiful. Men view love as they can give the women everything that they wanted and that will show them how much they love them. That's not the truth most women could care lass on what the men could give them to make them happy. All women want is for the man to show their love without material things.
ReplyDelete4. Sappho is trying to tell the girls to go after whatever you want. If it is a guy that you want to marry then go after them. Nothing is impossible to get if you just believe in yourself and fight for it. I think that the advice that she is giving her daughter is that it's okay to leave her behind because she will be fine by herself. Even though they won't be together anymore that she will always be there for them.
Great responses--very insightful! As you suggest, Sappho seems to argue that women don't want material things, they want the love that inspires them. This is contrary to the male stereotype of women, who want only jewelry, clothes, etc. But Sappho would argue that no matter what you want, the deeper desire is love itself--and to say anything less is to misread your own heart.
Delete3. In most of Sapphos poems they are about beauty love and men. but in the last few poems she is talking about marriage and consuming their marriage.and that is a time for celebrating, because back then they tried to hang on to their virginity as long as they could or their wedding night. Sappho also says some scandalous stuff in her poems. she doesnt come right out and say it but she is making some erection jokes. like the first fragment on page 75. 'you resemble a supple seedling, a green tree.' which even back then would be scandalous and innaproppiate.
ReplyDelete4. Sappho is making a point to her girls that it is fine to do whatever you want just rememeber your morals. like on page 67 she talks about not being the closest apple to the bottom of the branch. put yourself at the top. she tells her girls and other women to fight what you believe in but also believe in yourself. and go after the things you want in life even if it is a man. sappho tells her girls that she will be okay on her own and she will always be there for them and love them. even if they go off and get married.
Good responses--but be sure to include your name somewhere in the response. Otherwise, I don't know who you are! :(
Delete3. I like it I see these poems as a funnier and more cheerful side of Sappho that a have not seen thus far. These poems might be consider scandalous now considering she's talking about a wedding couple having sex and how "big" a man is put it was also a much more openly sexual time back then before Christianity and I personally like this side almost as much as her sad love poet side.
ReplyDelete4. Yes I think its great advice to her daughter or maybe even the young women she's teaching that they shouldn't let any sweet talking guy come and sweep them off there feet. and that they should have some self respect and make a guy that really wants them to work for it and show them that he truly loves her.
Good ideas, but as I've said below, give a little more detail, especially in #4. Show where you see this and maybe even quote or reference a line to illustrate your points. Good on #3, though.
Delete1. In Sappho’s poem on page 59, she uses the first stanza to almost put down a man’s view about the beauty of power and material things. She uses Helen of Troy as an example of a woman with presumably all that could be desired, beauty, a husband with wealth and power, and the love of a child and parents, but still felt incomplete enough to leave it all behind to follow another man. While it may have lost Helen everything, leaving with Paris gave her something she never had in her other life. Sappho uses this image to tell the reader that watching Helen lose so much to complete herself was better than watching a man fill his life with patriotism and things other people would more readily accept.
ReplyDelete2. On page 67, Sappho seems to be departing her wisdom on how men would treat these girls as they grew older. Sappho uses the metaphor of a ripe red apple growing high above in the treetops that the apple pickers see is there, and know it could be the best apple the tree has to offer, but they would rather not try so hard when there are easier apples to pick. Sappho is basically saying that the better ladies who know their worth, won’t be as bothered by men who aren’t looking for anything more than one night.
Great responses--good details from the poem as well. In the Helen poem, it's hard to say what she's advocating, but maybe you're right: at least Helen was willing to give up everything rather than simply love/do the accepted things. After all, what if you're not in love with ships and battles?
Delete3. They show off her more dirty side that we hadn't seen yet. They talk about sexual things on a couples wedding night so it may seem just as scandalous to later ages because in ancient times people were more open sexually than in later ages.
ReplyDelete4. These poems seem to be like a mother talking to her daughter about life and what could happen. Sappho might want to tell girls that they should go for what they want but also respect themselves and get a guy who is willing to work for it and treat them right.
Good ideas, but give a bit more detail: respond to a line or two from a poem so we can see where your ideas come from. Try to push yourself to write a little bit more, since the more you write, the more ideas you'll have for the paper/exam.
Delete#1 Sappho compares love and the different ways men and women perceive it on page 59. By saying men love "power" and then using Helen of Troy as an example for women. Helen had the ideal life but threw it all away, her husband, her parents and her son, all of Paris. They ran away together and even though it hurt so many people Helen liberated all women because she said "Being with the one you love and following your own heart is all that matters." Maybe it was selfish but women follow their hearts and men follow the power.
ReplyDelete#4 On page 67 Sappho uses apples and apple-gatherers as metaphors for young girls. She gives the advice and tells them that boys are going to look up at the brightest, reddest, best apple and be too afraid to grab it because they don't want to fall and get hurt; so they'll run to the easiest apples and just gather as many as possible. What she wants the young girls to know is that they deserve the gatherer who will reach up at the top to go get them and that these young ladies have to be patient.
Great responses--glad you shared this in class as well. Even in our own world, you've got to make them jump for it--or even climb a tree and risk breaking their neck. Otherwise, what kind of romance is it? :)
DeleteJacob Anderson
ReplyDelete1. Sappho confronts male ideas of beauty with a female perspective by using examples that were common among men at that time. Such as infantries and ships that were mentioned. By using Helen of Troy as an example she puts the power of love and lust into a perspective that most people can relate. According to this poem a woman's love love is different from a man's because they their love consists of emotions and personal feelings. Sappho implies that men love more materialistic things.
4. The Maidens of Marriage poems imply that Sappho wants to advise her daughters of the troubles that men can bring. Her advice to younger women may be to stay true to yourself and dont change just because someone else wants you to. By Sappho saying, "Maidenhead, maidenhead where have you gone? I shall never, ever join you again.", it sounds to me like she does not like that the maiden got separated from herself or is not acting like herself. This goes back to Sappho wanting people to stay true to themselves.
Good responses! In the last question, I think she's being even more literal: by maidenhead, she means virginity, and she is capturing a woman crying over the fact that a man took it and she can never get it back (while for a man, nothing is lost at all).
Delete