For Monday: The Illiad, Books 1 and 2
Answer TWO of the following:
1. From the first two books, what kind of relationship do humans have
with the gods? What role do the gods serve for them, and likewise, what roles
do humans serve for the gods? What makes
this relationship so different from the man/God relationship in most
monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)?
2. Examine Achilles’ confrontation with Agamemnon in Book I: how do we
respond to him as a hero in this passage?
Does he seem modern and sympathetic here, or is he petulant and
childish? Do you think Homer’s audience
would have responded the same way, or is this a modern, 21st century
response based on our own cultural biases/expectations? Discuss a line or two
that influences your response.
3. Though Achilles is often thought to be the embodiment of hubris
(excessive pride, overconfidence, etc.), in what ways does Agamemnon also deserve
this title? How do we see the leader of
the Greek armies display this quality, and how does it endanger the Greeks’
relationship with the gods?
4. The Iliad is an imaginative re-telling of the legendary
battle of Troy, and more importantly, it is a poem, so it uses metaphors to
make the warriors of old come to life. Discuss a passage in Book 1 or 2 where
metaphors are used creatively to help us see and experience the realities of
battle. Be sure to explain why you find
this metaphor unique and what it helped you understand about this moment in the
poem.
Margaret Mitchell
ReplyDelete1. In the first two books in the Iliad, the humans have a very close and serious relationship with the gods. They go to them for everything and have one for everything they could possibly ask for. The roles gods served to them would be that of whom the humans went to for being blessed. They did sacrifices for them and things of the sort. The gods were there to take care of the humans. Humans serve the roles to gods somewhat as in they must do things for the gods because they can’t do them. They grant them what they ask for if they are able to do what they ask of them, etc. This is different from Christianity and other religions because they only worship one God, and they believe in one God. Christianity is based on the thought there was no God before God as well.
3. Agamemnon deserves the title of hubris as well, because he has way too much pride in his victories and the many lands he has taken over. He also is very boastful when it comes to taking away Achilles prize. He claims he likes her better than his wife, etc. Even though he has many lands and many kingdoms he has taken over, he still wants more. This dangers the Greeks relationship with the gods because they look down upon things of the such. He kills many people in order to simply get more.
Great responses--it is a strange relationship of interdependence, yet the gods clearly get the better end of the deal. I think Homer is critical of this relationship by showing them in such an exposed, 'human' manner.
Delete1.) The relationship that is shared between the God’s and humans is very harmonious because the humans live their life, through the way the Gods tell them. In both book one and two of the Iliad there are several mentioning’s of the humans making sacrifices to the Gods and Gods coming down and answering pleas and prayers, or giving visions and so on and so forth. The Gods are the absolute law; they control everything. They control the decisions people make and the things they choose to do in their life. The humans are like the chess pieces in the Gods games. They do what the Gods say and tell them to keep them happy. When the humans anger the Gods the Gods bring on things such as famine, or plague to punish them for their insubordination. The humans practically serve as servants to the Gods. This human/God relationship is different from todays because in todays society people do still worship a God but is normally just one God. There is only one God that controls everything. People in todays time also do not run their life by what God wants them to do. In todays time people use the “its better to do it and then ask for forgiveness later”, because we believe that God will judge us only when we come to the Gates of Heaven, not when we go off and do something bad right that very second.
ReplyDelete3.) Agamemnon for one, does not fear the Gods and two, he doesn’t fear anything else. He thinks he is untouchable because he has never been beaten before. He is very prideful in himself and the “accomplishments” he thinks he has gotten, when it is his armies that are the ones who have done everything for him. In fact in the first book on page 5 during the arguments that Achilies and Agamemnon are having Achilies tells Agamemnon how everyone feels about him; saying, “You greedy glory-hound, the magnanimous Greeks are going to get another prize for you?,” showing just how blood thirsty and wanting he is, but doesn’t distribute the wealth among everyone else. Agamemnon’s behavior danger his relationships with Gods because he simply does not care about them. He doesn’t think they can touch him because his ego has gotten so big.
Great responses--very detailed! As you suggest, Agamemnon, by acting like a god, brings doom upon his entire army (as we see with Apollo). Who would want to follow such a leader? No wonder we sympathize with Achilles when he tells him off!
Delete1. 1. I think that both the humans and gods relationship is beneficial to both sides. The humans ask help from the gods in battle and the humans in turn do things for the gods. For instance see page 2 lines 45-60, Apollo grants Chrysies father the wish and used his arrows to kill the animals and men at Olympus, it causes Agamemnon to give her back.
ReplyDeleteThe Greek gods also help the humans but often want something in return, as in the passage on page 7, Athena comes to Achilles, and says that if he does not to kill Agamemnon, and she will see that he will receive three times the gifts.
The relationships between the gods and humans is a give and take, I’ll do for you if you do for me type of relationship. This relationship is totally different that with man/God because man prays for God’s will to be done not his own.
2.
I feel that the confrontation in Book I made both men seem very childish, prideful and they do lots of name calling, neither seems the victor. Agamemnon takes Briseis away from Achilles, since Chrysies was taken from him. It was like someone took his toy away, he would do the same. The answer of plea by one god, makes others unhappy and starts an upheaval with the gods.
Good responses: since gods run everything, humans know that praying to them can change things, especially if they appeal to them with gifts--something we would never consider. However, the gods are selfish, very vain, and very human, so they need to be wooed--and even then they might not help!
DeleteAndrew Reeves
ReplyDelete1. In the first two books of the Iliad Gods and humans have a beneficial relationship. Gods gain power and pleasure from worship of humans and interact with humans pretty freely and help them when possible to gain their good will towards them, this gaining them more power and influence. This relationship dynamic is different from monotheistic religions because you have multiple dirties vying for favor and playing favorites in the mortal world.The gods seem to be more humanized than the monotheistic religious gods and allows the reader to feel more in the action and as if they are seeing the gods manipulate man to get their desired results.
2. My favorite line from Achilles arguing with Agamemnon is "You sorry, profiteering excuse for a commander!" And "it's for you, dogface, for your precious pleasure-" These lines help me to relate to Achilles in this situation and the language feels completely modern. I believe that Homer's audience would have also felt the same way reading this section, being a democratic society at the time, they would want to also stand up and speak out if they were in Achilles's place. We respond to Achilles in this moment because he is acting the hero, he is standing up for principles of virtue and using words as a weapon to force Agamemnon to rethink his position. All in all I feel that Achilles is portrayed as a hero quite well in these passages.
Great responses: the relationship is beneficial, but perhaps more for the gods than for man. As we see, the gods only help those they want to help in the first place. I get the sense, as you say in Q2, that Homer's audience was sick of both gods and kings, and wanted to celebrate someone who defied them both, as Achilles does.
Delete3. Agamemnon threatens Achilles in Book 1, lines 194-197, “I’m coming to your hut and taking Briseis,/ Your own beautiful prize, so that you will see just how much/ Stronger I am than you, and the next person will wince/ At the thought of opposing me as an equal.” Although his physical strength is not equal to Achilles’ (or many other warriors’), his rank gives him the power to gain more than the most muscular and agile fighter. This behavior causes his most influential warrior, Achilles, to seek assistance from the gods in teaching Agamemnon a lesson. If the contest of hubris continues, it will lead the gods to choose sides and ultimately battle each other, which will produce severe consequences that will only complicate the human issues further.
ReplyDelete4. In Book 1, lines 107-111 include this metaphor: “Then up rose/ Atreus’ son, the warlord Agamemnon,/ Furious, anger like twin black thunderheads seething/ In his lungs, and his eyes flickered with fire/ As he looked Calchas up and down,” which stuck out as very powerful to me. The use of ‘warlord’ makes Agamemnon seem like he revels in violence, rage, and barbarism. The “twin black thunderheads seething” in his lungs give a foreboding and ominous tone to his anger. I understand that at this point in time, emotions were thought to be housed in the core of the body, and this metaphor allows the reader to identify with the physiological effects experienced with anger while getting the image that the fury is its own entity building up within Agamemnon.
Great responses: hubris DOES make the gods take sides and leads to a war in heaven as well as on earth. Perhaps that's why it's such a bad quality--it makes the gods accountable? Agamemnon, too, thinks he's a god on earth, which threatens to bring doom upon his entire army; not someone I would want to fight for!
Delete1. The relationships displayed between the gods and their human counterparts is an extremely interesting one. The humans, who desire conquests, power, glory, and the spoils that come with these things, are constantly asking the gods for assistance and divine intervention. The gods seem to appease the humans with what seem to be fulfilling of requests, but, will only go so far as to see their interests advanced. The gods toy with the humans by controlling them through dreams and acting as other voices that are familiar to advance their desires. This is very different from the views of religion today. The people are still requesting but it seems that there is a less hands on approach from the beings above in our everyday lives. This obviously can't be proved in a sense, however, it does seem that our monotheistic religions are less taxing on our gods today.
ReplyDelete3. Agamemnon is absolutely an equal for Achilles in his embodiment of hubris. He values his conquests and the spoils of battles above his troops and people that he governs. Because of this he elevates his own view of himself to the equal of the gods. That because he possesses an army of such strength and power that seems to be undefeatable he is all powerful. The gods intended to remind Agamemnon of his mortal being and send him to die on the blades of his enemies.
Great responses--humans must sacrifice and pray to the gods, but the gods are only swayed by self-interest. If they are against you, NOTHING you can do will help. A scary world!
Delete1. The kind of relationships the humans have with the gods is an extremely personal one. The gods influence their everyday activity, just like when Achilles was going to cut Agamemnon's head off but Athena whispered in his ear no. The humans to the gods are kind of like chess pieces. The gods see that they can manipulate them into helping the gods out without the humans noticing it. Likewise the gods can be a sort of "out" for the humans when they make a mistake. This is different from any monotheistic relationship because if you become angry at a god you can just pray to a different god and maybe still have some sympathy. However, when you pray to a single god, if you have messed up and know you messed up you can't go pray to another god and expect repentance.
ReplyDelete2. Achillies is a hero is this passage because he stands up for the entire Greek army in a way that nobody could fathom. Him fighting for the small people is what made him a hero. The fact that Achillies went and cried to his mother after Agamemnon stole his "treasure" was extremely childish. He had every right to be angry but he responded like a child rather than fight for what he wanted. I do not think Homer's audience would have portrayed it the same way I did because things can be lost in translation and where they might think he was crying over a lost love, I think he should not have listened to Athena and fought for what he wanted. However, back in those days, the gods were everything and if they told you to do something you had to do it. It isn't the same these days and that is what makes the book then and now so different.
Great responses: it is like a chess board, with human beings deprived (or so it seems) of free will. And yet, they seem to make choices which go against the gods--as with Agamemnon, and perhaps Achilles--which suggests that even the gods aren't all powerful.
DeleteAlbanie Beck
ReplyDelete1. In book 1 and 2 of the iliad the gods and the humans both benefit from each other and share a different type of relationship. The humans look to the gods for advice, help, and strength. The gods go to the humans when they need something done. The humans and gods seem only to help each other when it is convenient for them. These gods seem more humanistic than the God we go to. Their gods/goddess are somewhat similar to our God. We go to our God for advice, help, strength, and many other things. One thing that I find different is that they have many gods/goddess they go to for different reasons and we have one God that we can go to for anything and everything.
2. The confrontation between Achilles and Agamemnon is seemed very childish to me. They pretty much just argued the whole time, called each other names, and take their "prize" from them. Agamemnon says that he is going to come to his hut to take Briseis from Achilles as Chryseis was taken him. Achilles says he is a sorry profiteering excuse for a commander and calls him a dogface. And the gods start a war. I think Homer's audience would respond the same way.
Good responses--they have gods for everything since they believe everything is fate, or pre-ordained. Nothing is left to chance, which questions whether a human being can ever act for him/herself. So are the heroes heroes? The cowards cowards?
Delete1. In the first two books, humans have an extremely personal relationship with the gods, and vice versa. However, unlike monotheistic religions that only have one God that covers everything and are more or less concerned with the wellbeing of humans, these gods and goddesses have specific areas of expertise and use humans for their own agendas. Humans also use these gods and goddesses in their own conquests though and often ask for favors. The gods and goddesses then take these favors and puppeteer other humans to do their bidding.
ReplyDelete2. Agamemnon also deserves to be said to have hubris because of the way he views his conquests for more kingdoms. If it hadn’t been for the fact that Achilles could singlehandedly bring an army down to its knees, I’m sure Agamemnon would have thought to kill Achilles much sooner for the way he talked to Agamemnon. Another way Agamemnon embodies hubris was when we read of him taking away Briseis from Achilles just because he could. All of these qualities endanger the Greeks’ relationship with the gods because Agamemnon believes he is untouchable, and the gods don’t take lightly to humans trying to mess with the hierarchal order of the world. Humans are to be humans and the gods can be vengeful when humans aren’t worshipping the right people.
Great responses--as you suggest, hubris angers the gods and could destroy the entire army. They have a very close relationship, and to defy the gods is worse than suicidal--it could bring doom upon an entire kingdom.
ReplyDelete