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For Tuesday: The Iliad, Book 16
Answer TWO of the following...
1. How does Patroclus compare as a hero to Achilles? While Patroclus is clearly not Achilles’
equal, how does the book contrast him with his more famous friend? What sentiments/ideas does Patroclus
represent that runs counter to Achilles?
2. When Achilles prays to Zeus for Patroclus’ success in battle, the
poet writes, “Zeus in his wisdom heard Achilles’ prayer/And granted half of it”
(86). How are we supposed to account for
the cruelty or indifference of the gods?
Why does Zeus only fulfill part—leaving a kind of loop hole which will
doom Patroclus? What attitude about the
gods/fate does this reveal about the poet?
3. How heroic or honorable does Hector appear in his battle with
Patroclus? Is Hector the “good” hero as
opposed to the “bad” Achilles? Are we
rooting for him? Does he act in
accordance to the values of heroism in our culture? Does the poet celebrate his victory—or does
he, too, betray the code of honor in some way?
4. A big question: do the gods control fate or are they controlled by
fate themselves? What seems to be the
ultimate authority on life and death in the Greek world? Discuss a passage that seems to answer or
acknowledge this question. How might this complicate the struggle of life and
death for ordinary mortals?
First off we can't deny the bond and friendship these two share, for while Achilles is tender towards Patroclus he is callus to others. But what allows them to be different is that Patroclus, soft hearted as he is, hurts for his people, and strives to help keep their dignity in tact. To me this is who I would rather be seen as a hero, why look at one just for his name? Rather stand and fight with one you know might not have as much skill, but will always be loyal. That's the problem with Achilles, he could be the greatest hero but he does not know how to commit or at all know the term of loyalty,
ReplyDeletePatroclus reminds Achilles of the land, nations that would be his and the plentiful of women, if he would just wake up and realize of his selfishness, his fight may be with Aggamemnon but it also puts shame on his men in my eyes. I feel Patroclus really tries to reveal that in the text better than he does in the film as well.
Yes, good responses--Patroclus can see the big picture, whereas Achilles can only see personal insult and his emotions. However, Achilles is aware of his actions, but he no longer sees the point of doing the right thing. He's done it for so long (in his opinion) without any results.
Delete2. “In his wisdom” makes me think that Zeus knows that, as a god, he should be objective and at least listen to all mortal’s prayers, but it’s pretty clear he isn’t ready to give up his Trojan favor just yet. Zeus takes a route that impedes the Trojans’ progress (although not significantly), but only at a cost to the Greeks. If Zeus’ decision turns out poorly for him, he only has, ya know, forever to make things better for himself. The poet seems to be telling us that humans may be respectable enough for the gods to at least hear, but prayers reveal not only man’s greatest desire, they leave a path for the gods to specifically work against humans.
ReplyDelete4. Chance (not fate) seems to be the ultimate authority over life and death in the Greek world. Fate should only really matters to humans because their death is anticipated and the gods seem to know when it will happen. However, fate does matter to the gods because they have human offspring whom they love or want to represent them well. On page 90, Zeus considers changing Sarpedon’s fate, but Hera reminds him of god code: “A mortal man, whose fate has long been fixed,/ And you want to save him from rattling death?/ Do it. But don’t expect all of us to approve.” I think fate might plan itself out as it goes and is somewhat subject to the free will of humans—if you make this decision, this will happen to you. And the gods clearly have the ability to intervene, interrupting fate’s course but shifting the human toward another fated path. This passage shows that god’s get caught up in emotion and sometimes struggle with the fact that humans, beloved offspring or not, will inevitably die.
Great responses; much of the Iliad is about the idea of agency and power. Does power give you the right to do as you please? Or is there always some force checking your moves? Agamemnon is checked by Achilles, and Achilles by Agamemnon (or his own pride); and here, Zeus is checked by the idea of fate and the other gods, who, though less powerful than him, could make his life very miserable (as his wife already does). Often, the weakest end up getting the glory--as the child who stabs Patroclus finds out. That's a story he'll tell for the rest of his life!
Delete2. The loss of life in war is cruel, and the gods just use the battles as a game. Each god had a favorite and would help or hinder during the battle. Zeus likes Achilles and granted part of the prayer above. Apollo answered a prayer for healing Glaucus. The gods had a “do as they want” attitude.
ReplyDelete3. 3. Hector does not seem very honorable to me. Several comments said about him were “abandoned his allies” or Apollo asked “why are you out of action, Hector?’ Hector goes into battle but sets his sights on killing Patroclus, which he does after he was wounded by a boy. I feel his actions would not be a hero in today’s culture. I don’t feel that this death made a victory to celebrate by the poet and did not show honor.
Good responses...but don't forget, Hector isn't abandoning anyone; the gods make him run away (to set a trap for Patroclus) and then make him return to the fight. The poor guy is basically a puppet throughout Book 16, until the end, anyway. Or is even his speech over Patroclus' dying body a trick of the gods?
DeleteAndrew Reeves 1. Patroclus seems a lot more soft-hearted than his friend Achilles. He seems to be a more sensitive man than his cohort. Patroclus is shone in a light that makes him seem very empathetic to his fellow countrymen. He is very upset by Achilles not fighting in the war and helping to protect his fellow men from the Trojans. Patroclus has the ideals of a common soldier, to protect his fellow soldiers and his country, while Achilles, due to his half-god heritage, believes only in honor and glory. This makes Achilles seem a much harsher man than Patroclus.
ReplyDelete4. The gods in this world of the Iliad try their best to control fate. They manipulate the minds and actions of mortals, yet for all their efforts, most things happen against the wills of the gods. While the gods may influence some mortals fates, they do not control fate itself. The ultimate authority of fate in the Greek world are the three Goddesses of fate, Clotho,, the spinner, who spins the thread of life. Lachesis, the measurer, who chooses the lot in life one will have and measures off how long it is to be. Atropos, she who cannot be turned, who at death with her shears cuts the thread of life. These beings predate the gods and control the ultimate fate of man and god alike, deciding destiny, morality, and lifespan of everything. This is exemplified in the passage 470-490 of Book 16 of the Iliad where Zeus says to Hera "Fate has it that Sarpedon, whom I love more than any man, is to be killed by Patroclus. Shall I take him out of battle while he still lives and set him down in the rich land of Lycia, or shall I let him die under Patroclus' hands?" And Hera, his lady, her eyes soft and wide: "Son of Cronus, what a thing to say! A mortal man, whose fate has long been fixed, and you want to save him from rattling death? Do it. But don't expect all of us to approve. Listen to me. If you send Sarpedon home alive, you will have to expect other gods to do the same and save their own sons-and there are many of them in this war around Priam's great city. Think of the resentment you will create. But if you love him and are filled with grief, let him fall in battle at Patroclus' hands, and when his soul and life have left him, send Sleep and Death to bear him away to Lycia, where his people will give him burial with mound and stone, as befits the dead."
Excellent responses--even Zeus is checked by the power of fate, which usurps his monopoly of free will and power. If even the king of the gods has to yield to a greater power, what does that say about the gods? Are they just more powerful versions of bullies like Agamemnon?
Delete1.) Patroclus is like Achilles in many since he was in fact taught by Achilles himself. The two also are opposite in ways in this book and some of the past books also in the fact that Patroclus is a typical Greek soldiers he fights for honor and his fellow soldiers while Achilles is very prideful and only fights for his own glory. And that is very apparent in this book.
ReplyDelete3.) Hector's actions do not seem very honorable in the book. He rams his spear through an already badly wounded and retreating Patroclus which by no means is the actions of a hero even a hero at war. I think he almost betrays the code of honor by what he did to Patroclus and I don't think you would see a hero act in such a way in todays cinema.
Yes, Hector comes off looking cowardly and opportunistic here, and the movie does away with this entirely (as we'll see on Friday). However, we could argue that Zeus made him do this...we never know who people really are, do we?
Delete1. Patroclus is very honorable. He loves his country and seems willing to fight and possible die for it. Achilles is all about fame and honor for himself. Achilles only real reason for being at Troy is so is name will live on in History not because he cares for his countrymen and their country. Patroclus wants to wear Achilles amour and lead the men into battle so that way the Trojans will be scared and not fight so hard, letting the Greeks take a victory. Patroclus is clearly different from Achilles in the fact the Patroclus wants to fight with his men, and Achilles wants to fight for his self. Achilles and Patroclus are more or less opposites of eachother when it comes to fighting. Everything that Patroclus is for Achilles is against.
ReplyDelete2. Zeus favors the Trojans, he already mentioned that much early in the poem. But I feel like he answered part of Achilles poem for a few reasons. 1. It would get Hera off his back about not showing any favor for the Greeks. 2. Zeus would not have to deal with Achilles mom. Also if Zeus answered everyones pray to its full extent, the world be total chaos, and no one would be afraid of the Gods cause they know they could just pray to get what they want. Achilles still is not fighting because of his anger, Zeus knows that If he is provoked though it will draw back out into battle. Zeus grants a victory for the Trojans but a loss for Achilles in the doom of his friend.
In some ways, Patroclus is the opposite of Achilles, though in many ways they're the same. Patroclus cares more for others, but then again, he's not in love like Achilles is (and he wasn't publicly insulted so often). But in the book, we do see a sense of fighting for a cause and fighting for one's individual glory. Ironically, Patroclus is the one who is killed for his "disobedience" while Achilles lives on.
Delete1) I think that it was a heroic and a cowardly thing for Pateroclus to do. It was heroic because he was willing to go and fight for the Greeks. Then he thought that he had to wear Achilles armor to defeat the Trojans. He also wear it to try and scare them off to think that Achilles came back to fight them.
ReplyDelete2) The gods will try to fulfill the prayers but at the end of the day they will do whatever makes them happy. Zeus didn't want to fulfill the prayer because he doesn't want to show what side he is truly on. Zeus fulfilled Achilles by making Pateroclus get to Troy safely. Zeus makes Pateroclus think that he is so powerful and he can defeat anybody. Then he goes further then what he is suppose to go. Then he gets killed. Homer was trying to the audience that the gods aren't as good as people thought that they were.
Good responses...it was definitely heroic, and maybe a little hubristic to wear Achilles' armor, since he thought it would make him a 'god.' He felt invincible and was fighting with an extreme advantage, both materially and psychologically. Perhaps this is why he is cut down so terribly.
DeleteMargaret Mitchell
ReplyDelete2. In those times the people were supposed to think that only the gods have control over them. Zeus in a way only have granted Achilles wish because if he tinkered too much into fate, then things wouldn’t be fair or even make sense in a way. If the gods were indeed the only makers of fate, then this whole war could’ve not even happened. I think Zeus made his decision because he had too. He cannot always save everyone, he even had to let his son die. I think the attitude reflects on the gods through the poet as, maybe they have someone controlling them too. It isn’t just the gods determining the mortals fate, but something even bigger.
3. Honestly, Hector doesn’t deem respectable nor honorable at all with his encounter with Patroclus. Hector kills Patroclus when he is down in the dirt after he had already been stabbed twice before hand. What kind of man that calls himself respectable kills a man whom can’t fight back? In this part of the book it really gets you thinking about whose side you are going to go with. Hector may stand for all the good qualities that Troy does, but look what he does to Patroclus, in this scene it kind of takes everything that held Hector above Achilles away. I was sort of rooting for Hector up until this point but I also root for Achilles because I relate to both of their characters.
Yes, Zeus couldn't be all powerful here, because if he defied fate, bad things could happen even to him (as the other gods warn). Also, it would set a bad precedent, and all the gods would remove their children and favored ones from the battlefield (though Aphrodite already does this!).
Delete3. Hector seems to make a bad judgment when he kills Patroclus. Because Patroclus was already down and dying, and I would say he could've been embarrassed even, he was stabbed by a child. Hector hurt him while he was down, Patroclus was going to die anyways. I wouldn’t say he completely lost his "good" guy or heroic status because he was just angry and had a laps of character. All the good things people do cannot be ruined by one bad mistake. Hector should've used his sympathy and gave the body to Achilles', because what Hector did was robbed Patroculs of having a proper burial and living as peacefully as possible in the underworld. So was Hector right? No. Is he a bad person? Absolutely not, he had a damn moment and made a bad decision but that doesn’t make him a bad person.
ReplyDelete4. Fate controls the Gods, the Gods can only do so much for their loved ones or humans. When Sarpedon was fighting Zeus wanted to pick him up and save him because he saw that death was coming for him, but he couldn’t. So, he had to watch his son get killed and being an Almighty God you would imagine he could've stopped it. Although he had the power to do so, he didn’t have the means. If Zeus were to save Sarpedon then that means all the other Gods' children deserved to be saved. The Gods are limited, they may have more power then we do, but in the end we all face the same "fate", death.
Good points--it doesn't ruin Hector as a character, but it does make us question the idea that anyone can be "good" by the fairy-tale standards of our culture. We all make mistakes and dishonor the gods; and in this book, everyone ends up paying a terrible price for it.
DeleteKyle Straughn
ReplyDelete1. Patroclus is a more noble character. He has every intention of fighting, is clearly prepare to die for cause if the ferocity of his actions is any indicator, and he seems rather clever with his plan to wear Achilles armor for intimidation. While Achilles spends his time wallowing in self pity Patroclus cares only for the plight of his people. I find him to be the more interesting character.
3. It hard to asses him in this case because of the amount of meddling that the gods are doing. I would say that these passages certainly do not paint him in the most sympathetic light as he shows up after others have done most of the work in taking Patroclus down. With regards to Achilles I do not think of either of these men as good or bad, hero or villain. Achilles and Hector are like Super Man and Captain Marvel or Goku and Vegeta; they are both so far above the baseline that they are the only people who might kill one another. The Iliad seems to avoid creating clear good guys and bad guys in favor of simply of having strong personalities with clear flaws clash.
Great comic book comparisons; they aren't quite humans (like us, anyway) so it's hard to judge--all the more so since they're super soldiers from another culture. The only thing we can follow in the Iliad is whether the man act honorably or not, and the poet usually makes this clear for us by others' reactions. I think Hector crosses the line in his rage and triumph here, but also possibly because Zeus is making him do so.
Delete1. Patroclus compares to Achilles in that he is more honorable. Patroclus is willing to risk his life by putting on Achilles’ armor to rally and lead the troops to fight off the Trojans when Achilles can’t even set aside his anger to do the same, knowing he can’t be killed. Patroclus represents the ideas of patriotism and courage in comparison to Achilles’ want for self glory and arrogance.
ReplyDelete4. The gods are controlled by fate themselves. They may not like to admit it, but every mortal has a a time and place they will die, and the gods can’t do what they would want to change it. The passage of Zeus talking to Hera, illustrates this, “Fate has it that Sarpedon, whom I love more/ Than any man, is to be killed by Patroclus./ Shall I take him out of battle while he still lives/ And set him down in the rich land of Lycia,/ Or shall I let him die under Patroclus’ hands?” Hera lets him know that if he were to do that, every god would take their sons from battle as well.
Great responses: the gods control men, but are controlled--or at least subject to laws--themselves. Homer shows us that obeying the gods alone isn't enough to save your life.
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