For Monday: The Iliad, Books 9 & 12
Answer TWO of the following…
1. How do Ajax and Odysseus weigh in on Achilles’
actions in Book 9? Do they see this as
honorable behavior? Justifiable? Cowardly?
Hubristic? Cite a specific
passage to illustrate your response.
2. For the first time, Achilles reflects on his
personal philosophy in Book 9, starting on page 60. How does he explain his own views of
life/death, the purpose of war, personal glory, etc.? Is this a heroic speech, or does it sound
very strange coming from the mouth of the Greeks’ greatest hero? Would a modern action hero or solider say
these lines? Why or why not?
3. Based on these passages, is Achilles lovesick
or simply stubborn? Is there any more
support for the idea that he loved Briseus and is pining away for her, enraged
that she has to sleep with Agamemnon? Or
is she merely the last straw in a list of complaints and outrageous Achilles
has had to endure?
4. How do the gods blatantly use their powers to
influence the outcome of the war in these books? Is their own actions “honorable,” or even
fair to the Greeks and Trojans? Why do the gods seem to play favorites and
manipulate human outcomes? Does this
help to explain their actions and make it more (or less) understandable?
1. Ajax and Odysseus seem to think Achilles is acting out of extreme pride, but they seem afraid to come out and say it straight to his face. Instead they implore Achilles with the words of his father in Book 9 lines 258-59, "...it is up to you/ to control your proud spirit. A friendly heart/ Is far better." They remind him that he has forgotten these words, and then play on his ego by goading him with prizes and land and women. Even if Ajax and Odysseus aren't necessarily patient with or accepting of Achilles' behavior, they are at least strategic in the way they respond to it because they respect him as a warrior.
ReplyDelete3. Book 9 Lines 349-354 are extremely personal and revealing. Achilles doesn't just express his feelings, he insists that his rage and love are logical: "Every decent, sane man/ Loves his woman and cares for her." Achilles says, "It doesn't matter/ That I won her with my spear," implying that he would have chosen to love Briseus had they met in another context. As far as Achilles is concerned, Agamemnon's offense is unforgivable, which makes me think that Achilles values love, in particular his love of Briseus, over all else.
Yes, Achilles is willing to live for love rather than die for honor. I think he wants to go home and nurse his broken heart for the rest of his days, even though by doing so, she and the Greeks will die. His ideas are noble in a way, but his actions are dishonorable. But he soon learns the price of being too prideful and expecting too much honor from the gods...
DeleteAndrew Reeves 2. In book 9 Achilles sums up his feelings about the war by saying "I cannot imagine Agamemnon or any other Greek, persuading me, not after the thanks I got for fighting this war, going up against the enemy day after day." This implies that Achilles is fed up with Agamemnon and being used to win wars all the time without much personal profit. The entire speech he gave to Odysseus is tinged with bitterness and anger. This section sounds very much how a modern soldier would speak if forced into Achilles position.
ReplyDelete3. It seems to me that the situation with Briseus was more of a last straw to the camel's back than love. While there is some evidence of Achilles developing feelings for her, it is not as blatant as I feel a man like Achilles would speak about a woman he loves. While the line "Do you have to be descended from Atreus to love your mate? Every decent, sane man loves his woman and cares for her. As did I..." This may imply feeling for her. But I feel this is more of a case of jealousy and rage than being lovesick.
Yes, it's a quite modern speech, even "existential," since it asks "why do we do this--and for whom--and for what glory?" If we all die in the end, is there really any difference between a coward and a hero other than the stories men tell each other (often as propaganda to fight more wars, at that).
Delete1) They see it as honorable and just I able behavior. They don't think that he should have to stay if he isn't happy with the situation. On pg. 65, lines 508 and 509, "But you have to master your own proud spirit/ It's not right for you to have to start feeling worse about his self if he stays.
ReplyDelete2)Achilles vies death as you go out the the same way. You will go to the same place even if you do something honorable or something cowardly. He doesn't like the meaning that the war is setting now. He sees it as people fight for guys wives to take and have for their own. I think that Achilles says a heroic speech. Any real man will really tell how he is feeling and will back away if he doesn't like the meaning. I don't think that any hero now will say a speech like that. People want to see a hero that is strong and won't show a weakness. If a hero now says a speech like that then people won't go and see it. They want to see the hero fight and sacrifice themselves.
Good response--even though the Greeks don't like his response at all. He is holding himself even above the gods, who are willing to compromise if a settlement is reached. Achilles refuses everything for love and pride. Should people have to die so Achilles can nurse a broken heart? Shouldn't he at least accept the payment, save the Greeks, and then take Briseus and go home? (or if he has to die, at least he dies for a reason...if he dies forgotten, no one will remember why he defied Agamemnon in the first place).
Delete1.) I believe they find his behavior cowardly and far from honorable. They it unhonorable that Achilles denies these amazing gifts that Agamemnon has offered him, but also they find his actions very cowardly to and you see that on page 68 and 69 when Ajax talks of how Achilles's heart has been replaced by the gods with flint and malice.
ReplyDelete2.) Achilles has an interesting philosophy on death he says in this book that the coward and the hero are the same in the end. Meaning that they both die and he's also saying why not be the coward, just go home and live a long life? I think it is a great speech personally although it goes against Greek morals. Most Greek heroes go to battle young and die for their glory but all Achilles is living a long life and leaving all the fighting. I don't think you'd see this in a modern day action hero because everyone wants the hero to put aside all of his wants and accomplish something bigger which is not what Achilles wants in this book.
Good responses!
Delete1.Ajax thinks that Achilles’ is stubborn for not coming back to help fight for those he loved and that his main reason is over the stolen girl, and this is not a valid enough reason. He says “The gods have replaced your heart with flint and malice, because of one girl. One single girl, while we are offering you seven of the finest women to be found and many other gifts. “
ReplyDelete2.I like this passage that Achilles’ expressed about war, “….Not after the thanks I get for fighting this war, Going up against the enemy dad after day, It doesn’t matter if you stay in camp or fight – In the end, everybody comes out the same. Coward and hero get the same reward.” He is war weary and mad when he says that Agamemnon won while other did the fighting, he gave little away to those others, but at least the others got to keep their reward, but Achilles’ reward, the girl, was taken from him. I think in the begging the speech was heroic, but he started sounding more and more bitter. I don’t think a soldier today would talk like that. I don’t feel that today’s solider would trash talk other officers or soldiers. Our soldiers today have learned respect even if they disagree.
Yes, very good responses/details!
DeleteMargaret Mitchell
ReplyDelete1. Ajax and Odysseus are extremely taken aback by Achilles choices in book nine. They definitely do not look upon Achilles behavior as honorable. They believe if someone is in the wrong and chooses to pay the person they wronged with abundance, then the person needs to accept the gifts simply because it is the respectable thing to do. They kind of looked at him with astonishment. But what they didn’t realize was the internal conflict going on with Achilles. Sure, he could have all of the riches he could possibly have and women too, as long as he fought the war and possibly died. In the end what kind of gifts are those when he cannot enjoy them? Or, he could stop and go home and live a good long life. They actually tell Achilles to have gratitude for Agamemnons willingness to give him everything and even more.
2. Achilles speech can be taken in many different ways. In my eyes, it is heroic. He declined Agamemnons offer, which is highly noble for he is king of many kingdoms and is the most highly looked upon for war. Achilles chooses to look away from a man whom is greedy, “hubris”, and only has the army and followers he does because they have no choice because he captured their cities. In my eyes, that is indeed heroic. Even more so because he did it all for a girl he clearly has feelings for. Achilles realized that a war wasn’t worth fighting because Agamemnon brother didn’t much even deserve Helen. He only thought of her as property and got mad when someone took his ‘toy’ away. Today, I don’t think a soldier would say these lines because in todays world, men are not looked upon as emotional human beings. Everything is about respect and being ‘manly’.
Yes, it shows an ideal of Greek heroism, a man who despite his power can also feel deep love--and express it (maybe even too much!)
Delete1.) Ajax and Odysseus are both very unset with Achilles' action in book 9. They do not see it as honorable nor justified. They think that he is being a giant baby for being "love stricken". They say "He is a cruel man, and has no regard/ For the love that his friends honored him with," That right there makes him sound extremely selfish and it really shows how they think his actions are not justified and are very hubristic. However, I do not believe they think he is a coward. Although it may be very selfish they know he is not a coward so they would never disgrace him by calling him that. Or at least that is what I believe.
ReplyDelete3.) I think it is very clear that Achilles is very very stubborn. I do believe at first he was love sick. He really did care for Briesus but then as time went on a little bit, I think he became more enraged with Agamemnon than anything. I think he was just tired of having a hierarchy to answer too. He was also tired of fighting for somebody who showed him absolutely no respect so ultimately I believe it started off as a love sick fit, but then as he started to get less and less respect he became stubborn which I think is justified.
Yes, great responses!
Delete1) Ajax and Odysseus seem to think it is dishonorable and disrespectful of Achilles not to fight. They think Achilles is hubristic war or not. On pg. 69 lines 662-663 Ajax tells him "show some generosity, show some respect." And on pg 71, lines 723 & 724 Odysseus tells Agememnon "you should never have offered all those gifts. Achilles was arrogant enough without your help." I thinks it show a lot of bravery from Achilles to choose not to fight though. War is easy to him, it’s what he's good at. He is a badass, choosing life and turning away from honor and fame would have been the much harder choice for him I believe. It’s awesome that he is refusing to help out someone who has betrayed him and to hell with what anyone thinks about it.
ReplyDelete4) The gods are constantly using their powers to influence outcomes in these books. On pg. 72, lies 259 – 263 Zeus uses Wind, on pg. 73, lines 287 – 296 Zeus uses snow, in lines 300-302 Zeus uses his son Sarpedon, On Pg 76, lines 41- 421 “Zeus beats off the death spirits”, On pg 78 line 460 Zeus exalts Hector, 473-477 Zeus lightens the stone for Hector, In the summary of omitted books on pg. 79 it states that Poseidon rallies the Greeks, Hera seduces Zeus, then Zeus awakes and aids the Trojans. It seems almost like the gods are using the humans to play out their own twisted kind of chess game. This does help to understand some of the actions taken by the humans. It is hard to do the right thing when a god or goddess is telling you not to.
Good responses--we do (maybe more us than the Greeks) rejoice in a "badass" who refuses to help the king. In many ways he shouldn't--I can relate to him! And yet, the consequence is the death of so many of his friends and comrades--including, as we'll soon see, the man he loves best.
DeleteAjax and Odysseus don't agree with his actions because the men will die who came to fight with Achilles. Although Achilles should have the choice to fight or not but since he is the "Almighty Achilles" he needs to fight. In Greece everyone went by the honors system, and obviously Achilles isn't being honorable. Agamemnon offers Achilles' all of these riches and women and even one of his daughters and all of these are still no good for Achilles, that shows he is not being fair. "Agamemnon is offering you worthy gifts if you would only give up your grief".
ReplyDelete3. Achilles is refusing to fight because he is in love. He is not doing it for any other reason, I think. If he was trying to get back at Agamemnon then he would just have killed him. Achilles is not fighting because he is in love and I think he is trying to avenge Briseus because he is stopping a war for her.
Good responses--he's not playing by the rules (and honor must trump personal grievances every time).
DeleteSara Denton
ReplyDelete1. Ajax and Odysseus believe that Achilles’ actions aren’t honorable and is unfair to the men who would not survive if Achilles did not fight. “If you intend at all, even at this late hour,/ To save our army from these howling Trojans./ Think of yourself, of the regret you will feel/ For harm that will prove irreparable./ This is the last chance to save your countrymen.” They don’t understand why he won’t do the honorable thing and accept Agememnon’s apology gifts.
3. I believe that Achilles is lovesick. I feel that the passage, “Every decent, sane man/ Loves his woman and cares for her, as I did,/ Loved her from my heart. It doesn’t matter/ That I won her with my spear. He took her,/ Took her right out of my hands, cheated me,/ And now he thinks he’s going to win me back?” is a very strong example of Achilles’ softer side. This specifically says that Achilles cared for Briseus. He is not just some man bloodthirsty for war, and he is willing to not fight because the woman he loved was taken from him. It could also be taken as a last straw, but in all fairness Agememnon gave Achilles a long list to work with.
Great responses/passages. We see the soft side of Achilles, which is surprising and much more emotional than anything we see in the film.
Deletealbanie beck
ReplyDelete3.he is more stubborn than love sick. yes he may be love sick, but the way he acts he is very stubborn. i think achillies wants to live for love than die for honor. he wants to live a long life and be known than live a short one and die in battle. yes he is enraged that Briseus has to sleep Agamemnon but because of his attitude and childish ways it looks more like its the last straw.
4. the gods choose sides. its not honorable because they are choosing sides. yes it makes their actions understandable mother was immortal she tried to use her powers to convince the gods to be on Achilles side so i guess i can see where she is coming from. achillies has a close relationship with the gods. it is not fair to the greeks that the gods choose the trojan side and play favorites with them.
Good responses...but if it is honorable to serve the gods, and the gods, themselves, are not honorable, then what IS honor? It's a big question in this book.
DeleteDarrell Wetselline
ReplyDelete1. Ajax and Odysseus definitely look down on Achilles' choices. Not fighting and not taking an offer can seem very huberistic to both of them. It makes it worse since they know that Achilles can play a major part in the war. That Achilles has the ability to " save our army from these howling Trojans". The fact that just wants to go home, I mean anyone would get mad at him. Its like he is not doing his job.
3.Achilles' seems to be lovesick. He is a man after all. He is more than likely to be attached to any woman in a time of war. But since he has feelings for briseus, it makes it that much harder for him to see her taken away to Agamemnon. Basically he is lovesick so it Is the final straw of all the complaints he has to endure from Agamemnon. Except this isn't frustrating its painful for Achilles.
Yes, he's literally not doing his job or following the honorable thing to do, especially once restitution is made. The question is, does Homer want us to agree with Achilles, or condemn him for going too far?
DeleteKyle Straughn
ReplyDeleteUpon hearing his reply both find Achilles to be completely unreasonable. To quote Ajax:
“Pitiless. A man accepts compensation/ for a murder brother, a dead son / the killer goes on living in the same town / After paying the blood money, the bereaved / restrains his proud spirit and broken heart / Because he has received payment. But you, / The gods have replaced your heart / with flint and malice, because of one girl / one single girl, while we are offering you / seven of the fineist women to be found / And many other gifts. Show some generosity / And some respect.” Book 9, lines 652-663
Both men are fed up with Achillies's attitude stating that there are bigger and better thing for him.
3. Both, possibly in equal measure. On one hand it could be assumed that Achilles does not trust Agemenon at all and is refusing to fight on the assumption that he will just be gypped again. He cites his love of the girl and not his wounded pride as the reason that he refuses to participate. If he is read this way he comes off as rather fatalistic and maybe a little selfish but the attitude is understandable as he would gain nothing and would also help the man that cause his woes in the first place. On the other hand he may believe that he would receive all that is promised to him and he is just so angry at Agemenon that he is refusing to fight out of pure spite then I would say he's being exceedingly childish.
His attitude obviously infuriates his comrades and wouldn't be acceptable for the ancient Greeks...and yet, we can relate to it quite a bit. It might be childish, but if noble (for love), does that rescue it somewhat? Our culture seems to prize love above all else, especially honor. So would we approve of his actions more than they would--or is this just too much?
Delete