For Monday: The
Iliad, Books 18, 19 & 22
Answer TWO of the following…
1. In Book 9, Phoenix warns Achilles that
“if you go into battle without any gifts/Your honor will be less, save us or
not” (68). When Achilles finally decide
to fight in Book 18, is this seen as an honorable decision? Has he ‘saved’ his honor? What explanation does he offer for abandoning
his grudge against Agamemnon? Is it
enough?
2. What is the biggest difference between the
Hector/Achilles duel in the film and in Book 22? Though both men do fight one another, and
Hector is slain, what moments leading up to this are markedly different? How do you feel about the film’s
translation? Does it keep the spirit of
the fight despite changing the language?
Or does the change of language change the fight itself?
3. In Book 19 Briseis finally gets to speak:
what does she say and how does it define her as a character? What do we learn about her (and her
relationship with Achilles), and how does she compare to the other speaking
women—Helen and Andromache?
4. Before Hector goes into battle, he is
approached by his father (Priam, the king) and his mother (Hecuba, the queen). What do they say to him that differs
dramatically from the film? How does
this scene show us a different side of the Trojans and of Hector? Again, you might consider why this was
translated out of Troy (the
film).
2. I feel like Troy cheapens the fight between Hector and Achilles. Achilles does not stalk up calling Hector to battle on a beautiful, calm day in the Iliad; instead his rage and power are realized in his silent stride toward Troy and his unswerving determination in pursuit of Hector's life. Hector's panic shows the reader that despite his confidence in battle and expectations of heroism, he is a human animal ruled by an instinct to escape certain death. The intensity of the battle is heightened in the Iliad by Hector's initial fright, while the Iliad makes both combatants equally viable to win. The reader knows Hector is doomed, and Achilles' victory is more personal than in Troy. The language used as Hector dies mirrors the language surrounding Patroclus' death; Hector prophecies his killer's death and his soul also flutters out, "Resentfully, forsaking manhood's bloom" (pg 134). The film does not ultimately put Hector in Patroclus' role upon his death, and I think makes his death more artful and meaningful.
ReplyDelete3. Briseis' background is similar to that of Andromache's; her family was destroyed by Achilles during war, and she feels that she is plagues by bad luck because everyone she loves has died. Unlike Helen or Andromache, she is taken as a prize and ends up being compatible with her captor. We learn that she found comfort in Patroclus, and it seems that despite the destruction to her life caused by Achilles, she was not opposed to the idea of marrying him. She says, "You told me you'd make me/ Achilles' bride, told me you'd take me on a ship/ To Phthia, for a wedding among the Myrmidons" (pg 117). Perhaps because Achilles is so god-like and is well-known to be the best warrior around Briseis was willing to accept a life with him. Although he certainly caused her grief, a life as his wife could ultimately raise her status and bring her benefits. She makes it clear that she has nothing to lose, and was making do with the kindnesses of her new companions.
Great responses--I love the image of Hector's soul leaving his body. It suggests he was betrayed, cheated, and I think he was. Achilles had a cabal of gods on his side as well as supernatural armor that had never been worn by a moral man before (no wonder Hector ran away!). The movie makes it simple--two men fighting for honor. In the book, it's an endless subterfuge. Even Briseis becomes more complex, since she seems to think more of Patroclus than Achilles, and either way, gives voice to the senseless pain of war. It kills everything noble and beautiful in life--and for what? What comes of the 'victory'?
Delete1. Thetis gave armor to Achilles so he could return to battle for the Greeks. Achilles felt he needed to go back to fight for Patrochus, his friend, who has been killed. I believe that others felt that he still had honor and he admitted that his grudge over Briseis had gone on too long. When he was not leading the fight against the Trojans, too many brave soldiers died.
ReplyDelete3. Briseis has been a pawn in the book so far, first taken from her family as a spoil of war, given to Achilles. As the battle between Hector and Achilles escalates, Briseis is stolen back from Achilles by Hector. This starts the lengthy grudge that Achilles carries and refuses to go to war for awhile. Briseis find the body of Patroclus, a friend due to the good treatment he gave her, and she was saddened to see he was killed. She lost brothers, and husband, in the battle of war. Being alone, she realized that becoming a bride to Achilles would not be a hardship and was willing to make the situation work. Andromache, like Briseis lost family to war, and since she is married to Hector a major leader in the war, she knows Hector may die too. Helen was beautiful and men of war would fight over her.
Great responses--we see a little bit here why she chose Achilles (or why she didn't fight as much as we might expect), and perhaps why she was happy to be with him. When Agamemnon takes her away, she probably thought, "oh great, here we go again. And this guy is definitely not going to take care of me!" If Patroclus, who is kind, can vouch for Achilles, he must be worth being attached to.
Delete2.) I would say one of the biggest differences between the duel between Achilles and Hector is that in the book, Hector was a coward because he ran. He didn't go meet Achilles like he did in the book, he saw Achilles coming toward him and kind of had an oh shit moment when he realized that he was about to get destroyed by this guy. Also another huge difference is the fact that he kind of died at the hands of Athena. Had she not pretended to be that other guy, he would have never stopped running from Achilles. Moments leading up to the fight were also very different because they were in the middle of war and Achilles had gotten deceived to follow Apollo so he ended up way far away from the fight thinking that he was following Hector. The fact that they were in the middle of war when Achilles went to kill Hector is totally different from the movie. I do not like the movies translation because its trying to make it seem like there are really two heroes when there really isn't and it totally destroys the spirit of the fight. It glorifies Hectors death like he is a great martyr when in reality he is really just a coward.
ReplyDelete3.) When Briseis finally gets to speak, her words are quite shocking. She does not necessarily talk negatively about her family, but it is very clear that she cared for Pactroclus just as much if not more than her family. It's kind of incredible because she also talks about how he was going to make Achilles her husband, but he literally killed her husband which makes me think that things weren't so great between them. She literally mourns a loss form somebody who has killed tons of her people. Now, how she compares to the Andromache and Helen is quite unique. Judging from the book it would kind of seem that she is not as strong willed as the other two. Almost as if she could be sweet talked easily. She said "... you wouldn't let me cry when Achilles/Killed my husband..." and then she goes on to say "... You told me you'd make me/ Achilles' bride..." The fact that those two lines are in the same speech is astounding. She is not even sad at the fact that the mad her murdered everybody in her temple and personally her husband is going to be her future husband, and its all because Patroclus, it makes me wonder is she is not as strong of a women as the other two. They stood up for themselves. Helen stood up to a god... that itself says a lot.
Yes, great responses here: Briseis' speech focuses on her personal relief at Patroclus' kindness, which suggests either what kind of life she had previous to this, or simply her disbelief that a man could do more than rape her. It makes her, formerly just a prize, a real person with real ideas. It's exciting and unexpected.
Delete2) Hector in the book has a more natural reaction to get the hell away form this guy. In the movie he stands his ground and fights. In the book Athena appears as Hectors brother so he finally stops running because he thinks he has back up so he gets a little of his nerve back. In the movie there was no place for this because he was fighting form the beginning. I guess the movie does keep the spirit of the fight for the most part of course the emotions are more raw in the book Achilles is a freaking mess after Patroclus is killed. He's crying and rolling around on the ground, in the movie he's really pissed but not out of control with emotion like in the book.
ReplyDelete4) Hector's father in the book is telling him not to fight Achilles. He tells Hector that he will die if he does. His mother is beside herself begging Hector not to fight. She tells him the same that he will die. In the movie they do not say this at all. It's more like sorry you have to go fight and die, We will miss you and we loved you. I guess they had to change it for the movie to make them seem more regal or godlike. We want our heroes to be brave not scared shitless like we would be in the same situation. There is just nothing special about that.
Great responses...it's not special, but it's more human for Hector to have doubt and to want to save himself (even more so, since his father wants him to back down as well). The book is more complex and shows that fighting isn't always the right thing to do, or the most honorable. The movie hints at this, but can't really say it...it wouldn't be very dramatic!
Delete2) Hector in the movie is very Brave and heroic. He knows that he will die when he fights Achilles but still does it because it is what his people expect of him. Hector is a future king and if he chickened out of the fight with Achilles the people wouldn't look up to him, and also the Trojan Army wouldn't feel like they are fighting for anything except to die for a prince who was too scared to fight his own battle. In the book Hector last minute realizes that he is for sure going to die, and gets scared. He starts running away from Achilles hoping Achilles will give up and go away, but Athena appears and kind of tricks Hector into thinking that he will be OK if he fights and that there are some Gods on his side, but the truth is the Gods saw how Hectors scale was dropped down towards Hades, so they just want to get this over with and not have to have Hector suffer. Achilles on the other hand, is avenging Pareoclus's death in both the book and the movie, but in the book Achilles is more upset about his friends death. He is holding Patroclus's body and just bawling like a giant baby. He is much more emotional in the book then in the movie, and I think that is partially because who would root for a bawling God-like man of war if he couldn't even keep his emotions together. Now in the Movie both Hector and Achilles fight is completely different. Hector stands his ground like the Prince he is and fights Achilles because he knows it is what he is supposed to do. the scenes before their fight show Hector kissing his wife goodbye because he knows he will not be coming back, but he still fghts because he knows it is what he is supposed to do. Achilles in the movie has his emotions much more in check then what the book says. Instead of being all sad he is more vengeful and angry and uses that to fuel his hatred for the fight he rarely crys in the movie.
ReplyDelete4) In the book Hectors mother and father are beside themselves. They do not want him to go and fight. They both tell him if you fight you will die. But Hector doesnot listen to them and continues on with the fight. In the movie though, we never see Hectors mom, we aren't even sure if she is living or what because she is never mentioned. And Hectors father doesn't really say much to him, because he knows his son has to fight Achilles and that this is fate. His father in the movie is loving towards his sons but is more honorable when it comes to the fighting. I feel like they left this out of the movie because again no one would want to watch a whine-bag prince be caudled by his mother and father before going off into war. It isn't heroic and it doesn't fight what society views as someone of nobility would do in a battle.
Great, detailed responses; it's interesting that the movie makes them both look better--and less complex--than they are in the book. Both are heroic, but are 'weak,' if you want to use that word. Yet both do what their culture expects of them--and the result is a lot of suffering and not a lot else. Achilles knows that nothing good will come of this--it won't bring Patroclus back or stop the endless cycle of death--but he does it out of grief. Well, doesn't everyone? :)
Delete1) I'll consider it a honorable decision. He isn't just thinking about his self anymore. He wants to get even with Hector for killing Petroclus. His armor from Hephaestus has a meaning to every little detail that is on it. The only reason that Achilles will fight with Agamemnon is so that he can get revenge on Hector. Achilles would rather be with the Greeks then against them right now. It's enough for Achilles at this moment until he defeats Hector and makes him suffer.
ReplyDelete2) She doesn't know why everybody that she gets close to has to doe. She is like Andromache be use they both suffer from losing people that the love to Achilles. Briseis would be happy with Achilles as her husband. She would get some power and enemies of being married to a god - like person like Achilles.
Good points...it's honorable but also blind to the fact that EVERYONE feels this way, especially his own victims. What makes Patroclus better than anyone else, or even Hector once he kills him? It relates in a way to the designs on his shield: everything beautiful is destroyed by anger, grief, and war...there's simply no stopping it, and Achilles says as much in his speech. Or, as he says in the movie, "It never ends."
Delete2 & 4. The largest difference in the fight between the two “heroes” is the scenes that lead up to the battle itself. The family in the movie respects that Hector must go and fight. They still know that his chances at victory are slight and he will most likely die. The book portrays the family as more selfish and wanting him to stay and not fight. Priam tells Hector that he is no match for Achilles and that if he goes that he will be robbed of another, his most dear and precious, son. Hecuba bares her breast and tells Hector to recall on the time when the breast gave him the strength and courage that he now has and to know that if he goes into battle that he will cause her more pain and suffering than any mother should endure. Hector himself even sways as to whether he should fight. He of course does the honorable thing and fights because he is convinced to do so by Athena, who of course lies to him and tells him that he will have support from his best fighter. I felt the battle was portrayed more honorably in the movie than in the book. I believe this only though because the verbiage in the book allows us inside the minds of the duelers. The movie, because it lacks this dialogue (completely ignoring the inner struggle) seems to have a less boisterous and definitive choice of sides. We aren’t allowed in the movie to choose a side until it is too late and Achilles has killed Hector. They no doubt wanted to keep us in the dark as long as possible. The book shows us who is going to win before the fight even begins. After Zeus whimps out and allows Athena to interfere in the battle it is preordained that Achilles will fulfill his destiny, as does Hector.
ReplyDeleteGreat combined responses here. It's a tough situation to call, since Hector is told point blank that refusing to fight Achilles is no dishonor. After all, he's not fighting fair: he has several gods on his side and is wearing supernatural armor. Hector only has Apollo, who clearly is no match for the others. He will die...and if he dies, the Trojan army will fall and his family will be murdered. What would the lesser evil be? And in the end, he does choose to fight, even when he realizes Athena tricked him. The running away part is almost humorous, but again, Achilles looks like a god (he's wearing the armor of a god), so if you saw a god coming at you, you would run, too! :)
ReplyDelete2.) The fight between Achilles and Hector in the film is vastly different than the translation of it in the Iliad. I would say the biggest difference between the fight in the film and the fight in the book is how Hector acts during the fight. In the film he is ready to fight and he knows that he has to go out there no matter what and face Achilles and he fights and dies honorably but in the book he is also ready to fight but once he gets out there and sees Achilles he starts running from him in fear. He does end up fighting and dying but it is not near as cool and honorable as it is in the movie. I would have to say the spirit of the fight is definitely lost from one translation to another.
ReplyDelete3.) In book 19 Briseis finally speaks out when she sees the dead body of Patroclus. We learn that she kind of has had a crappy life thus far and that she might not have loved her husband that much. We learn that Patroclus was going to hook her and Achilles up and get them married and when she saw his dead body she realized that probably wasn't goin to happen anymore. But her little speech is very passionate and sort of love oriented like some of Helen's and Andromache's speeches.
Andrew Reeves
ReplyDelete2. The fight between Achilles and Hector differs from the book immensely in the film version. In the book Hector runs around Troy multiple times to escape Achilles before being tricked by Athena to stand and fight Achilles, and being subsequently murdered. In the film version they made Achilles and Hector seem equal and just a battle of force and skill, not having any godlike interference. I enjoyed the book version more because it seemed more realistic in the thought processes of Hector. If anyone nowadays saw Achilles on a battlefield they would most likely run, since he looked like a god and had a god's armor designed by Hephaestus.
3. In book 19 we finally hear Briseis. She speaks of her life and how horrid it was. We learn how important and monumental Patroclus's speech was to her and how much it impacted her. He was promising her so much and it meant a lot to her, as she fully expected to be raped multiple times and then be married off to another random man she would most likely hate. Briseis is very eloquent, yet she has a simple nature to her that we relate to, similar to Andromache, but she has less presence to her than Helen does. She speaks and causes people to listen, but she doesn't command their attention. I feel that Briseis is a very important character and when she speaks it grabs attention since she doesn't speak very much at all throughout the entire Iliad. So when she does you pay more attention, and you empathize with her because of her horrible past.
Margaret Mitchell
ReplyDelete2. In the film, Hector acted heroically instead of cowardly like he had in the book. In the book, Hector thought about not fighting and he also ran away when Achilles sought after him. In the movie, it portrayed two men acting heroic to their own beliefs. But however, Hector was terrified. He knew there was no way he could face Achilles and win. Achilles was half god and the gods were on his side as well. I honestly do not like the films translation because it doesn’t portray it correctly because they had the way men are looked at in todays society kind of sway the image. It does keep the spirit of the fight, because we know one of them is going to die, it simply didn’t portray how incredibly terrified Hector was and how much of a coward he was as well.
3. In the book, Hectors parents try and talk him out of fighting because he will lose going up against the half god Achilles and they don’t want to see him die. In the film, they kind of send him off saying to fight and make Troy proud and to not be cowardly. In a way it shows how the Trojans would much rather stay away from conflict. Also it shows that Hector even though scared, he still thinks that fighting will be better than paying “blood money”. It also seems that Hector is somewhat hubris because with everything that his father and mother says to him about what will happen to them and his wife and child, he still chooses death pretty much.
Darrell Wetselline
ReplyDelete2. Hector was a coward in his fight with Achilles. The movie version is better because it makes it more entertaining than to see hector run from Achilles. If hector did what he did in the book, in the movie it would change everything that you think about hector. It is the one act that makes him seem so dishonorable. Hector is all about his country but wont die for it willingly.
4. They did not want him to fight Achilles and were willing to make hector feel like crap so he wouldn't. In the movie everybody is supporting him and probably believe in him. They watch because they believe that he can kill Achilles. The Trojans don't look too good compared to the movie. I do believe that anything that the Trojans do in the book that makes them look like dishonorable is because homer is more on the Trojan side.
Albanie Beck
ReplyDelete3. In the book Briseis finally speaks up. she tells about her life and how terrrible it was in chapter 19. in the movie after seeing Patroclus body and knowing hector did this she feels sorry for achilles because she two lost family in war. then achilles goes and kills hector for him killing patroclus. Briseis tells achilles that her cousin killed his cousin so he had to go kill hers. she is very upset that he did that. so she thinks that she is going to have marry achillies because since he took her after the war and pretty much made her his slave and he killed her husband.
4. In the movie Priam (hectors father we dont see Hecuba) pretty much "got speed my son." im just kidding they tell him that they are sorry he has to fight and he is probably going to die. his father tells him they will miss him and he love him. But in the book his parents are crying and begging him not to go fight because he will die. i think the reason that they did this change is because we want our heroes to be heroic and not act cowardly.
2. In the movie Hector is very noble and honorable during his fight with Hector. He kisses his family goodbye because he knows he will die, and yet he still goes out and fights Achilles. They have a battle face-to-face and the noble Hector falls, yet he dies in honor. In the book Hector runs away from Achilles because he's afraid...he literally runs around in circles. The moments before the fight Hector's father tells him not to fight, and that can freak someone out so I understand but that doesn't make him seem any less than a coward. I think the movie did this because in the movie Hector is the always hero, if he would've ran away then Hector in the movie would've lost his heroism.
ReplyDelete4. As I referred to in my answer in question three, Hector's father speaks to him very differently in the movie compared to the book. In the movie Priam is so proud of Hector, he kisses him goodbye and tells him to fight hard. Priam is full of sorrow, yes, but also I think some kind of delight that he raised such a honorable man. In the book however Priam is basically begging Hector not to fight and if he must then Priam tells Hector to do it within the kingdom so the soldiers can protect him. In the book Priam tells Hector then he is not only killing himself but the whole kingdom. In the movie if the kingdom is at risk Priam will handle it, he would rather his kingdom die for the glory or honor of his son.
Kyle Straughn
ReplyDelete2. The major difference is that as soon as Hector gets a good look at Achilles he runs scared. The chase lasts all day and ends with Hector being tricked into fighting Achilles by Minerva. The Movie has an angry but very mortal Achilles facing Hector in fair combat. This is in stark opposition to the book where Achilles has magic divine armor which makes for a very lopsided battle. The movie pits man against man where as the book pits Hector against fate and the gods as well.
4. In the movie everyone is resistant to Hector going out to face Achilles but no one actually try to stop him. By comparison the book has his parents saying everything they can to try and stop him. His father gives a graphic descriptions of the death he will suffer if Hector dies and the Greeks overtake the city. The same with his mother. Neither manages to sway him, but far from the noble martyr of the movie, the Hector of the book is motivated by blood lust and a desire for glory. The Film really shifts the story away from just competing egos to the challenges of heroic men pitted against one another by forces beyond their control.
1. Hector was a coward and runs away from Achilles during the duel in the book. But honestly, anyone would have been scared to go up against Achilles in his new armor made by the gods. The film translated the scene into an equal duel, but reading the passage, it was obvious how much of a disadvantage Hector was really at.
ReplyDelete3. In book 19, Briseus was upset about the death of Patroclus. He was one of the only men she could really trust because of the compassion he showed her, and he promised to see her married to Achilles so as to give her a good life. She seemed to be holding out for this promise as her other marriage hadn't seemed to be the best. I feel as if Briseus is more like Andromache in that they have both had horrible things happen in their lives.