For
Wednesday: The Iliad, Books 23 &
24
1. In a passage omitted from our version of Book 24, the gods debate about whether
Achilles should give up Hector’s body.
Apollo, who thinks he should, speaks:
How callous can you get? Has Hector
Never burned for you
thighs of bulls and goats?
…but now you cannot
Bring yourselves to
save even his bare corpse
For his wife to look
upon, and his mother,
And child, and Priam,
and his people…
No, it’s the dread
Achilles that you prefer,
His twisted mind is
set on what he wants,
As savage as a lion
bristling with pride,
Attacking men’s flocks
to make himself a feast.
Achilles has lost all
pity and has no shame left.
Shame sometimes hurts
men, but it helps them too.
A man may lose someone
dearer than Achilles has,
A brother from the
same womb, or a son,
But when he has wept
and mourned, he lets go.
The Fates have given
men an enduring heart.
But this man? After he kills Hector,
He ties him behind his
charior
And drags him around
his dear friend’s tomb.
Does this make him a
better or nobler man? (lines 37-57)
What do you think Apollo means by an “enduring heart,” and why might this
speech suggest that hubris is a quality of gods—not men?
2. How does Book 24 present Achilles’ decision to give Hector’s body back
to Priam? Is it still an act of compassion
and mercy? Does this book redeem
Achilles in our eyes, or is he merely a pawn of the gods, forced to do Zeus’
bidding?
3. How do the various women respond to Hector’s body—Andromache, Hecuba,
and Helen? How does this give us
different perspectives on who Hector was, and whether or not he died honorably—or
for the right reason?
4. Why do you think the book ends with the funeral of Hector, rather than
with the fall of Troy, or even the death of Achilles? If the story is about Achilles’ rage, then
why not end with the natural outcome of his rage—his death? Why is ending the book here, rather than
later on in the actual story of Troy, somehow satisfying?
1.) I believe that when Apollo says "enduring heart" he is suggesting that men were made to suffer. The Fates gave them a heart that can with stand a crazy amount of grief, but it is not meant to withstand a total heartbreak. We can mourn the loss of somebody and it will be very difficult to lose somebody, but we are always able to bury them and that helps us int he grieving process. When one does not get the chance to bury their son/daughter, they never really get over the loss of that person.
ReplyDeleteHis speech suggest that hubris is a quality of gods, not men because, gods lose their kids all the time and they do not give funerals to all of them, but for a man to deny a king the funeral of his best son is hubris because who is that man to decide who gets a funeral and who does not.
4.) I believe the book ends with the funeral of Hector because we already know that Troy falls. I think the book is just about the consequences of our actions. It shows the reason why Troy fell because most everybody knows they fell, but they don't really know why. I believe that the book starts off with Achilles rage, but it ends with him showing compassion. I think it doesn't end with Achilles death because he is really just a pawn to the gods. The gods manipulate him into doing whatever they want so you know they'll just throw him away when he is becoming too powerful. Also, ending the book here gives you even more pity for the Trojans. They lose their best soldier and now their entire kingdom is about to fall. If Homer was trying to make us feel bad for them, which I believe he was, not writing about the end of the book allows you to imagine all the terrible things that happens to their country. It makes you remember all the things they talked of in the book like throwing the children off the walls and raping all the women and you can only imagine what really happened to the Trojans. It leaves room for your imagination to keep running.
2) Achilles decides to give Hectors body back is a little bit of compassion, a little bit mercy and even a little bit of respect for Hector. I think Achilles felt sorry for Priam, after Priam made his plea because it made Achilles think of his own father. Everyone in the entire book seems to be pawns for the gods.
ReplyDelete3) All the women seem to share the same sentiment that Hector died far to young and very unnecessarily. Andromache is angry with Hector for leaving them all to fend for themselves. She is of course worried about her fate and the fate of her son. Hecuba is sad, the death of Hector brings back the memory's of her other children being captured and killed. Helen is sad as well. She gets very nostalgic about Hector because he was kind to her and was one of the only people in Troy who could stand her ass. This does give us a look at another side of Hector. We mostly get to see the warrior side of him but the women in his life give us a glimpse to his other parts of him. I guess since Hector was fighting to protect his people so it was an honorable death.
1. To the gods, “enduring heart” is a very human expression. Humans mourn the death of a loved one a long time, sometimes forever. To the gods, they feel it is ok to mourn the death of someone, but get over it and go on. The gods think the mourning time for Achilles should be over and he needs to do the honorable thing and give the body of Hector to his father.
ReplyDelete3. Andromache, mourns her husband, Hector. She appears worried for her and their son’s future. She will go off to labor and their young son will probably be murdered. Now that Hector has died, she feels no one is able to protect her people. Hecuba, Hector’s mother, sobbed over the body of Hector. He was her favorite child, though she had many. She knew that he was chosen to be special by the gods, and due to war, all her children are gone. As for Helen, she considered Hector as a favorite of all her husband’s brothers. He was stood up for her even when she felt she did not deserve it.
2.) I think Achilles gives Hector back out of both compassion and mercy. He has seen what he has done to Priam, by killing all of his sons. Achilles took Hectors body as revenge for Patroclus but Hector only killed the one friend of Achilles;Achilles killed all of Priams sons, and now he feels sort of bad for having taken Hector. Also Priam plea made Achilles think of his own father so he started to feel a little compassionate towards Hector and his family. This does not redeem Achilles in my eyes because he was also told by the Gods that he needs to let Hectors body go, so he is also just kind of playing it safe so he doesn't piss of the Gods any more then what he already has.
ReplyDelete3.) Hector died defending his people so I guess its an honorable death, he tried to chicken out of it at first, but then we fought he tried his hardest to prevail. Hectors wife Andromache is kind of pissed that he left cause she knew this would happen, and she now is scared because she does not know what fate will fall of her anf their son. There is no one to protect the people so she feels doomed because of his death. Hectors mom Hecuba is beside herself. Hector was er favorite, and she sobs all over Hectors body and she also remembers her other sons that fell before him. Helen feels like she is to blame, Hector, even though he did not approve of brining her to Troy, stood up for Helen on many occasions and tried to make her feel like the Trojan women she now was.
Andrew Reeves
ReplyDelete1. I believe Apollo means that the human heart is enduring, as in it shrugs off pain and moves on. I believe he means it in this manner due to the previous line "A man may lose someone dearer than Achilles has,
A brother from the same womb, or a son,
But when he has wept and mourned, he lets go." This implies that man grieves and moves on, continuing to live life and and grow, which gods and goddesses cannot do, they hold grudges and just keep busy until they find a new favorite mortal they like, never moving on or really grieving for their loved ones.
2. Book 24 presents Achilles's decision to give Hector back to Priam as a begrudging acceptance of what he must do. He feels that Priam was escorted by a god to his camp and feels he cannot oppose them. This makes Achilles seem less noble and forced to do Zeus's bidding. This book in it's entirety drops our opinion of Achilles even further because of his anger and bitterness he shows towards Priam. He is forced to give Hector's body back, and he is definitely not happy about it. All in all, Achilles seems to be a pawn of the gods throughout this entire book, all because Paris chose one goddess over the others at a party, causing Aphrodite to grant him a favor, which in turn starts an entire bloody war.
1) Apollo means that the gods made people just not care what they are doing to people's life's. Achilles has no heart at the moment of defeating him. He doesn't want to give Hector's body back to the Trojans so they can have a proper ceremony. The act is hubris right now because Apollo knows what the right thing to do. It shows that some gods actually has a heart for people.
ReplyDelete2) When Priam brought Hector back to Troy all three women had different reactions to seeing him. His wife, Andromache, was angry at him. She didn't like that he was dead. She knows that Troy is going to get taken over by the Greeks. He left his son to be town over the walls of Troy because so many men doesn't like him. Now she is going to be taken and become somebody's slave. Helen is sad that Hector got killed. She knows that it should have been her that died first because it all started because of her. Now that Hector isn't there nobody will show her respect. Hector died for the right reason. He was fighting for honor. Hector knew that the right thing to do was fight Achilles and not let anybody to do it for him. Now it is a bad thing Troy doesn't have anybody to lead them in battle and Troy will get taken over.
1.) I think that apollo meant when he was talking about an enduring heart he was talking about how humans can handle and get through pain and show compassion and empathy, the way this shows the hubris quality of the gods is that they cannot show these same emotions or work through them
ReplyDelete2.) in book 24 achilles shows very little compassion when he gives back hectors body, because when it was up to him he refused to give the body back to priam until the the gods intervened. even when they got involved achilles still made hubris comment to priam about how if he angered him he would kill him and then told him how having hectors body would not fix any of this. in this book the only compassion that achilles show is when priam starts talking about his father, to me it comes off as achilles just being a pawn of the gods and doesn't show and redemption for achilles
1.I feel like when Apollo says man has an “enduring heart,” he means that man has a heart that is able to last even after all the horrible things that happen to it. Man doesn’t have even half the life that the gods do, and therefore can’t hold grudges or hurt feelings as long as the gods can. It is for this reason that the gods should be considered hubristic instead of man. The gods have all the time in the world to decide whether to forgive someone or not. They don’t need to care about what the others will think because time will go on either way. Humans have a short time span to do all their living, so they have to find a way to heal their hearts to continue on.
ReplyDelete3. When Hector’s body is returned to Troy, there are many different reactions from Andromache, Hecuba, and Helen. Andromache is mad at him for choosing the war over his family. Hector left Andromache knowing that once Troy was taken, his family wouldn’t have a chance of surviving. She resents him for this, and resents him for leaving her with nothing—no loving words from his deathbed, no last touch for her to remember. Hecuba grieves the loss of another child to yet another war. Helen is sad that the one man who never blamed her for the war was one of the many to die in it. With all of these emotions coming from Andromache, Hecuba, and Helen, I feel that Hector died honorably but not for the right reasons. There should have been a better way to go about ending the war than going into a suicidal match against Achilles.
1. An "enduring heart" as said by Apollo could mean that we are meant to endure pain. Much like gold being refined through fire, so are humans, being refined and "enduring" pain. Apollo's speech is meant to evoke emotion from the gods as Hector's body is being drug around. He says this to them to question their pride of saving face among each other rather than saving Hector's body.
ReplyDelete4. The book ending with Hector's funeral is a huge statement by Homer. This ending paints such a clear picture that there is no true winner in a war. There will be loss on both sides and it will hurt. It also sympathizes both sides of a war for the reader. Being able to identify with opposing sides puts the reader in a strange place when facing deaths.
Kyle Straughn
ReplyDelete2. Achilles is still pretty reluctant to give up the body. If I were to try and analyze his behavior I would say that he has already accepted that the gods have decide he can't keep it but he still wants to do some posturing in front of Priam. If Achilles knows that Jove has decided something then I think he is smart enough to go with it.
4. As far as I am concerned the Iliad is the book about how Achilles killed Hector. Yes , other things happened and yes Achilles did a lot more but Hector spends most of his scenes on how he wants to fight Achilles and his most significant win is his killing Patroclus who he thinks is Achilles. The majority of the words are spent on Achilles's reasons for refusing to fight and what was going on while he sulks. He only gets back to work because Hector killed his cousin. In my opinion the work could be described as the lead up to the fight between Achilles and Hector with a few subplots thrown in to convince the reader that there is really a war going. Ending it with Hectors funeral provides the definitive end of the interaction between him and Achilles and the definitive end to the story.
2. Achilles does not want to give Hector back, but he makes it seem like it was his idea. Hector wouldn't have been returned had it not been for Theist, his mom. He says that returning the body was his own idea i think so he seems honorable because what Achilles did to Hector after Hector had died was so dishonorable. Achilles doesn't really know how to be human and or generous so for the Gods to have to step in and tell him to do the right thing shows how un-human he is and how cruel he can be.
ReplyDelete3. At Hector's funeral all the women come and give their last words. Hecuba is mournful and devastated she has lost another son. Andromache is angry that he died. She basically says he has his honor and he has proven he is not a coward but that costed all the lives of the people he love, and he has killed the two people he should strive ti always protect, her and their son. Helen is mournful for herself, not just in a selfish way though. She is sad that now one of the only people who didn't want to see her dead have died, she says that hector was the only one who saw her as a person.I think from all the responses he died for no reason, fighting was not the right choice.