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| From "The Age of Bronze," a graphic novel of the Iliad (in our library) |
For
Wednesday: The Iliad, Books 3 and 6
Answer TWO of the following…
1. How do Books 3 and 6 help us
discuss the question of free will in The
Iliad? Do men and women act on their
own desires and impulses, or are all these actions decreed by the gods? Where do we see an event that seems to answer
this question?
2. Discuss how Helen responds to
Aphrodite in Book 3: how does this contradict our view of Helen in the movie, Troy?
How does Homer see Helen, and what makes this a more believable, and perhaps
modern, characterization of her?
3. In Book 6 we meet Hector’s wife,
Andromache, another strong female voice in the poem. How does she complicate our idea of heroes
fighting a glorious battle? What is the
“woman’s perspective” on the Trojan war, at least according to her?
4. How do Books 3 and 6 contrast the characters of Troy’s two heroes, Paris and Hector? Are they as distinct as they appear in the movie, or are there more subtle, less obvious differences? Which one is more ‘heroic’ in modern terms? Do you feel one wasn’t seen as a hero in the ancient world? Are there any clues that suggest this?
4. How do Books 3 and 6 contrast the characters of Troy’s two heroes, Paris and Hector? Are they as distinct as they appear in the movie, or are there more subtle, less obvious differences? Which one is more ‘heroic’ in modern terms? Do you feel one wasn’t seen as a hero in the ancient world? Are there any clues that suggest this?
3. Andromache's resistance to Hector's fighting in the war is made understandable by the list of her family members Achilles and the Greeks have slaughtered. From her perspective, if aggression with the Greeks continues, Hector is simply next on the list. She makes it clear to her husband, "When I lose you, Hector,/ There will be nothing left, no one to turn to,/ Only pain." Her words serve to make Hector's return to the battlefield seem cold and, as Andromache says, with "no feeling left/ For your little boy or for me," but I think the Western audience expects him to fight (and ideally, win heroically) regardless of her pleading. What complicates this expectation is Andromache's role as the sole survivor of her family; we think it's honorable for Hector to continue to battle, but we're plagued by the inevitable tragedy of his death.
ReplyDelete4. The book makes a huge contrast between Paris and Hector, almost more so than the movie Troy, in my opinion. Paris is a fair, lazy pansy with a wife who deplores being taken from her home, while Hector is the war hero with a solid, loving home life. Paris is absolutely not heroic by ancient Greek or modern American standards; I almost couldn't believe what I was reading on lines 36-44 in Book 3! He lost what little respect he had left when he "could barely stand/ As disdainful Trojans made room for him in the ranks." Disdainful indeed. Hector proves he's the better brother at the end of Book 6 when he says, "It breaks my heart/ To hear what the Trojans say about you./ It's on your account they have all this trouble." Paris' character makes him a waste of beauty, while Hector's respectability makes him a hero.
Yes, we expect him to fight--we know he has to--but it's important to hear his wife's voice. She's already seen the outcome of this battle a dozen times. It it heroic to abandon your wife and child? Is it heroic to take someone else's? Heroism sounds good on paper, but there are some ugly truths which make every hero a demon to someone else. Hearing this in The Iliad makes it a much richer, and more disturbing poem than it might otherwise be.
Delete1. I The Iliad, men and women attempt to have their own voice. However, they are under the certain control and guise of each different god that demands will be done. The perfect example of this is when Helen is spoken to by Aphrodite who is disguised. Helen knows that it is Aphrodite that is beckoning her to return to Paris. However, Helen does not want to go and hates herself for being lured into the arrangement. Helen, though, cannot completely refuse the request of Aphrodite even though she doesn’t want to be there and wants to go home.
ReplyDelete2. Helen does not want to obey Aphrodite, she despises Paris and herself for being fooled into the relationship that was brought on by the gods. She is a stronger character in the books, but still cannot completely act of her own free will and accord. Because she has a strength about her she becomes a more believable hostage to Paris and the Trojans of Troy. This brings her to a more modern persona of women who have strength and the ability to fight for their rights, beliefs and wants.
Good points here; even though the gods force men and women to do their will, they can try to oppose it, as Helen does. She might have to give in at the end, but she can still show a backbone (unlike Paris!). The question is how far can a human defy a god--and can they ever win?
Delete2. Several sections in Book 3 we see the men in battle do as they want, sometimes ask the gods for help during battle. On page 37 is a prayer that was asked of Zeus from Agamemnon to “whoever breaks this oath and truce… And may other men master their wives.” This prayer was not fulfilled by Zeus.
ReplyDelete3. She does not like war and tells Hector so, that he will make her a widow. War has killed many of her family. Andromache tells that his courage has made him possessed. When he leaves back to war she does not expect him to return.
In #1, consider that Menelaus asks for Zeus' blessing and doesn't get it. So he doesn't get to kill Paris. This isn't free will, but Zeus telling him what will and won't happen. So the question is, can a human ever really defy a god and get away with it? Can they win?
DeleteMargaret Mitchell
ReplyDelete1. Books 3 and 6 help us discuss the question of free will in The Iliad because it discusses in a way how sometimes the people may thought that they chose something but the gods actually made it happen, or had already long planned it. I believe in ancient times the beliefs were simply different. Yes, to a certain extent men and women did act as their own person but when it came to their fate, it was all in the hands of the gods. One example to prove this would be when Paris is to fight, and loses the battle but one of the gods comes down and makes mist and makes Paris unable to be seen so he can make an escape.
3. Andromache complicates our idea of heroes fighting glorious battles simply as fighting battles aren’t at all glorious. She tells Hector that he needs to put aside his pride and willingness to fight in war aside in order to not leave his child an orphan and her a widow. She makes the woman perspective of the war as it being somewhat foolish and selfish of the men to be fighting. They should be focused on their wives and children and not the bloodshed of many soldiers. She made known that in that time that war was all glory and prideful, but also selfish at the same time. The men willing to fight, also didn’t think of the things they were to be leaving behind shall they parish.
Great responses--Andromache forces him to see the side he never looks at, and that most poets don't write stories about. And yet, every hero is a killer to someone else's wife, so every victory is also a tragedy. The Greeks look at the destruction of Troy as a heroic tale...but think about all the Trojans who either die or go into slavery. It's Exodus for them.
DeleteAndrew Reeves 1. Books 3 and 6 of the Iliad make us question if any of the characters have any free will at all, or if they are just playing puppets to the gods. With the gods putting their hands in every little matter they please; it makes us wonder, did any character actually do anything according to their free will? even their personal battles are manipulated by the gods, an example of this is Paris's fight with Menelaus, in which Aphrodite spirits Paris away from a losing battle. We honestly don't have a passage that clearly answers the question if any of them are acting upon their free will or not. They all can be interpreted as free will, or godly actions.
ReplyDelete3. In book 6 Andromache appears and pleads to Hector not to fight this upcoming battle. She tries to make him see that if he is killed then she will have nothing left and surely perish. She tries all the manipulation she can think of, only to be denied because of Hector's heroic ideals. She complicates the ideals of the reader toward heroes fighting a glorious battle by showing us a small window into the life of women in this time period and showing us the aftermath of war and how tragic and terrible it is. All in all, Andromache seems to act as the voice of reason and humanity, which is what I believe Homer was attempting to do by having a woman speak in his works at all. In doing this he elevated her to a higher status than most women in this time period had, and made her a sort of 'aspect' of humanity.
Great response: this is a big question, since Paris seems to lack any free will as Aphrodite moves him from place to place. Even Achilles seems to follow the will of the gods, and can only not fight because Zeus is making it tough for the Greeks. However, people do seem to have some agency, since Helen tries to defy Aphrodite, and Agamemnon defied Apollo for a time. What will even Achilles do as the book continues?...
Delete2. Helen does not like Aphrodite due to the fact she is the reason Helen fell in love with Paris. She is very resentful of Paris and fully regrets her decision to come to Troy. Helen even asks Aphrodite on page 41 “Where you have some other boyfriend for me?” In the book Helen is a much stronger character then in the movie depiction of her. In the movie Helen is upset that she brought war on the city of Troy but doesn’t regret being with Paris. In the book she despises the God’s and the love they made her fall into. She despises Troy and especially Paris.
ReplyDelete4. In both the book and the movie Paris is seen as the “pretty face”, but in the movie they beef Paris’s character up a bit, where he is still kind of a wimp but he is seen as more heroic due to the fact he actually attempted to fight and defend his love for Helen. In the book they make distinct differences between Paris and Hector. Hector is the all over embodiment of a hero and future king. He is brave, strong, wise, and very heroic in protecting his City. The book makes Paris and Hector total opposites of each other. Paris is very much a pretty boy, He would rather let other people fight his battles for him, then him follow his brother and fight with honor. On page 29 Hector even calls Paris a “desperate womanizing pretty boy” and scolds him on how is good looks won’t protect him now or in further fights. I do not believe Paris was seen as a hero in the ancient world because of how strongly the book depicts him of being a wimp.
Great responses...Paris is the opposite of Hector in many ways. He seems to want to do the right thing, but when Aphrodite intervenes, he doesn't seem too outraged (not like Helen, anyway!). Hector, on the other hand, fights even when he knows he is doomed--knowing full well what will happen to his wife and child.
Delete2. In the book, Helen is extremely upset with Aphrodite. She knows the consequences of standing up to a goddess, but she does it anyway. She holds her own and is extremely strong willed. In the movie however she is very timid and she doesn't say anything. It's almost insulting how she is portrayed as a woman who shuts up and does what she's told. We have a misconception between the book and the movie there.
ReplyDelete3.Andromache complicates our idea of heroes fighting a glorious battle because she really shows us how it is not glorious at all. They die a bloody death for nothing because they lose their wives and kids. Their women become slaves and children often die. She shows us that there is not really any winning in war. The women's perspective on the Trojan war is that it is not worth fighting. It's over another women who should not even be there. and she knows that her husband is going to die at the hand of Achilles who had killed her entire family already, and he is favored by the gods so it is an unwinable war.
Great response: Andromache is the 'dark side' of heroism: to win a battle, you have to enslave someone's wives and children. is that heroic or honorable? It is for the Greeks, but not so for the victims...and Hector knows this will probably happen to his family, too, but tries to ignore it. Andromache makes him face this unhappy fate.
Delete1) We see that the gods have control over everything that people do in The Iliad. The people do have their own desires but that doesn't mean that they are going to get what the want. The gods do whatever will make them happy. It seems like they don't care what kind of consequences that is going on or how they are messing with people's lives. Aphrodite doesn't care that Helen doesn't want to be there with Paris. She still makes her to in the room and be with him. Helen doesn't have a say in all of it because Aphrodite will do whatever she pleases.
ReplyDelete2) Helen stands up to Aphrodite. She doesn't like what Aphrodite is doing with her life. Helen just wants to go back to her daughter and family. Aphrodite wants Helen to stay with Paris. In the movie, Helen seems weak and doesn't have an opinion in what is going on. The book shows that she has an opinion. I think that Homer wants the audience to know that Helen is strong and can defend for herself. The women in the modern world has their own opinions and will voice them rather people like it or not.
Great responses--it shows a surprising strength for Helen that we don't get in the movie or anywhere else (though it sounds a bit like the poem where Sappho mentions Helen). In both, Helen tries to exercise her own free will in pursuit of what she loves, or what she thinks is right.
Delete1. Free will isn't really an option in the Iliad. Yes, their is the thought of free will but it all ultimately comes down to what the Gods want, or who they favor. Take Paris for example. He decides to fight honorably for Helen and he makes the deal that if he dies then Helen can return to Greece and the Trojan army will do whatever Menelaus wishes of them. However when Paris seems to be coming close to death and his life is going to end, Aphrodite swoops in and picks him up and drops him into his room, locked in there with the irresistible Helen so Paris will be focused on having sex rather than fighting. So no, free will isn't really a choice in this world.
ReplyDelete3. This war between the Trojans and Greece's army will kill everyone not only fighting but the innocent people in Troy. So, Andromache, she stands up for herself and every women in Troy when she asks Hector not to fight. If he does Achilles will kill Hector and he will died and by dying he then leaves his wife and their family to the kingdom, a kingdom not ran by people who care if they live or die. The widows become slaves and the children get killed if their boys or sold as slaves if they're girls. The women of this time have no choices and Andromache knows this and makes a statement for all women in Troy.
Yes, good response--free will seems out the window in this passage. Even heroes locked in the pursuit of honor can be said not to really have free will. They have to do what their culture expects of them, regardless of what happens to their wives, sons, and daughters.
Delete2. In the movie, Troy, Helen seems to be a woman that is a woman of the ancient Greek role, even if she did leave her husband and child for another man. She accepts that she is leaving with Paris without a fuss, and worries about him while he is in battle. The watcher does not get to see that originally, Aphrodite was pulling all the strings behind the curtains. In the book, Helen sees through what Aphrodite is trying to accomplish when Aphrodite disguises herself as an old woman to bring Helen back to sleep with Paris. This infuriates Helen, and she tells Aphrodite to go sleep with Paris herself. Helen fighting with a goddess is a more believable characterization because Helen is a royal woman, and in the modern world a woman with her beauty and stature would stand up to something she wouldn’t want to do. This makes me believe Homer has a more complex view of how a woman really was than what was originally accepted back then.
ReplyDelete4. Books 3 and 6 distinctly contrast Troy’s two heroes, Paris and Hector. In modern terms, Hector would be the more heroic of the two. Even though Paris started the war between the Greeks and Trojans and Hector hates him for it, Hector stands by his side and fights for his country. Hector also has a family that he cares about, and instead of staying by their side to keep safe, he risks his life so that hopefully he can save thousands of families from Troy. However, when Paris has to duel Menelaus, he tries to run back into the Trojan ranks and has to be forced back into battle by Hector. And when Aphrodite whisks Paris away in the middle of the duel, the book tells of the Trojan soldiers and Helen hating Paris.
Great responses: yes, even though 'Homer' seems to be a man writing from a male perspective, 'he' is still able to include many astonishing female touches, as you describe. He criticizes his heroes as much (or more?) as he celebrates them.
DeleteKyle Straughn
ReplyDelete2. Helen is not the willing bride of Paris but instead is a victim of circumstance. She is held captive and desires to leave Troy. Helen for her part has very little agency in the story. Despite that Helen is a character with her own motivations who tells off a goddess and provides much needed exposition. In the movie she of course leaves Grace of own free will and it is her lust, Paris's blind love, and King Agamemnon's ego that starts the war. She by her own actions sets the story in motion. That said the love struck damsel who runs away from her constraining marriage to be with roguish youth is not new. Despite her lack of agency or maybe because of it I find Homer's Helen to be the more interesting character.
3. Andromache fears the loss of her husband and grieves the loss of her father and brothers who have already perished in battle. We see here the extent of sorrow brought from the war. She also asks Hector to keep back from battle but Hector rebukes her entreaties by asking how he could look at the people of Troy if he hung back when his country men were dying. Andromache forces us to confront not only the horrors of war but its after effects.
Great responses: the women look at things that the men refuse to look at (indeed, Hector hopes to be dead when they carry off his wife into slavery). But these things exist, and after heroes die, life goes on--and it's pretty miserable for the wives, slaves, and daughters.
DeleteTrevor Huie
ReplyDelete3. Hector tells Andromache that he has to fight for honor, but Andromache is torn when she ponders the future in the event that Hector is killed in battle. According to her, and probably what many Trojan women thought were the after effects of the war. If their husbands were to be killed, they would be slaves, and their kids would be orphans. So, we see that men who left their wives and children, aren't as heroic, because some people approach it from an aspect where a man who leaves his family and doesn't look out for them is a coward. However, in the ancient Greek, it was still better to fight in a war and die with honor, that made you a hero.
4. Hector and Paris are extremely different, and although the movie attempts to depict the differences between them, I feel as if the book does a better job. They are very different in that Paris is looked at as a coward, and as a man who will not stand up and fight for honor. However, Hector is the opposite, he is a man who looks out for the Trojans and respects the fact that he will fight and die for his country if necessary. I feel as if Paris was not seen as a hero as Hector tells him he should hear the things others say of him, which portrays the idea that others did not see Paris as a hero.
Great responses--we see both sides of the story here, and even though it doesn't change the story, it forces us to question our heroic values.
ReplyDelete